- tdwg-content - lists.tdwg.org

list conventions
by Susan B. Farmer 23 Nov '99

23 Nov '99

Before we get started too heavily on this list, can we change it so that all messages default to the list rather than the originator? We are trying to foster discussion. Susan Farmer sfarmer(a)goldsword.com Botany Department, University of Tennessee http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium

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standard sloppy values (was) The end of DELTA?
by Bryan Heidorn 23 Nov '99

23 Nov '99

This came up in several different forms already, but any hierarchy should be able to be terminated at any level without generating a syntax error. Semantics need to be defined based on the depth of the hierarchy in any particular instance. This will help to accommodate the large body of semi-structured text descriptions that already exist and were discussed earlier. For example, the "Leaf" node might be defined to contain a list of optional properties (or sub-nodes) such as size, shape... but the standard should allow for free text description as well, perhaps by allowing for a <NaturalLangage> as one of the options, sort of an "other" category but with definable semantics. So a system might treat the value of this field as a term vector in a full text retrieval system or some other application we have not thought of yet. It could coexist with the other more restrictive nodes such as <size>. This would allow partially successful parsers to "automatically" mark-up full text documents to conform to the standard. This use of parsers brings up a meta-data issue that came up at the TDWG conference. Many data elements can have a certainly associated with them. Certainly is of at least two types. One is the confidence that the data in the node is actually correct. A good example might be programs that attempt to register location based on verbal descriptions. This might only matter for computer programs generating the data and programs reading the data but I can imagine human uncertainty as well. For example an entomologist might know part of an insects habitat or range leading to uncertainty in this data. The second type of uncertainty is the type used in LucID for indicating how well the characteristic classifies the organism being described for identification purposes. just 2-cents from an information scientist. -- Bryan Heidorn At 06:47 PM 11/23/99 -0500, you wrote: >>Could one constrain further by expressing within the schema the hierarchical >>relationships between the elements(eg 'blade' and 'petiole' as child >>elements of leaf') or would the introduction of terminology into the >>'standard' be a step too far? >> > >Putting on my programmer hat here, those kinds of things should be about >to be included in whatever XML standards were set up relatively transparent >to the user. For instance, "leaf" by default would contain certain properties >(size, shape, petiole, base, apex, number, arrangement, location) that >the user could code or mark as non-existant withought having to worry >aout the "parent/child" or other object relationship. Folk who want to >*write* software that uses the XML (or whatever) standard would be the >ones to worry about those issues. > >Susan Farmer >sfarmer(a)goldsword.com >Botany Department, University of Tennessee >http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium > -- -------------------------------------------------------------------- P. Bryan Heidorn Graduate School of Library and Information Science pheidorn(a)uiuc.edu University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (V)217/ 244-7792 501 East Daniel St., Champaign, IL 61820-6212 (F)217/ 244-3302 http://alexia.lis.uiuc.edu/~heidorn "You've got to run just to stand still and if you want to get anywhere you have to run twice as fast." Red Queen in "Alice in Wonderland"

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Re: list conventions
by Peter Rauch 23 Nov '99

23 Nov '99

It's configured that way now. Peter > Before we get started too heavily on this list, can we change it so that > all messages default to the list rather than the originator? > We are trying to foster discussion.

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so far...
by Noel Cross 23 Nov '99

23 Nov '99

Hello Computer Taxonomists! I have a bunch of comments on previous posts here: First Mauro J. Cavalcanti wrote: > As an attempt to start a discussion, I am posting this to ask: do we all > really agree that there should be a new standard for descriptive data > based on XML, as a substitute for DELTA (as well as NEXUS and XDF)? I was going to reply, but then Leigh Dodds wrote... > Perhaps we should start by building a list of requirements and then > measuring DELTA, NEXUS, etc against them to see whether they meet > them. ...which seemed sensible enough to me too. > So, what do people see as the basic requirements for this kind > of format? > > - ease of use (i.e. authoring) > - ease of processing (parsing, validating, reading, converting) > - ease of sharing (i.e. distribution) > - open-ness (i.e. proprietary/non-proprietary) > - ease of extensibility (i.e. ability to add more information cleanly at a > later data) > - internationalization > - un-abiguity of data representation > - unlimited size of data sets? (i.e. any limitation on character names, > lengths, item names, numbers, etc) My guess is all of the above? And XML would provide them too, no? > What types of data need to be modelled by the format? (this can > be a post-requirements gathering step, but some consideration needs > to be given early on to measure the 'success' of the current > formats) As far as Delta goes, I think that the data are fairly close to what taxonomists have been encoding into traditional taxonomic descriptions. 'Success' is pretty good. Nexus can include charater/state data but also other things such as ways to describe phylogenetic trees in the so-called "New Hampshire" format: ((raccoon:19.19959,bear:6.80041):0.84600,((sea_lion:11.99700, seal:12.00300):7.52973,((monkey:100.85930,cat:47.14069):20.59201, weasel:18.87953):2.09460):3.87382,dog:25.46154); Nexus is actually an extensible format so almost anything could be included. Unfortunately there is still doesn't seem to be an online description of Nexus, though the standard was printed in the journal Taxon a couple of years ago. I sense that application developers who use Nexus are pretty happy with the format since is was a collaborative effort to begin with, and that the Nexus community would not see a great benefit in adopting a new data format. Anybody else have this impression? I know nothing about XDF. Mauro once pointed out this reference though: White, R.J. & Allkin, R. 1992. A language for the definition and exchange of biological data sets. Mathl. Comput. Modelling, Vol. 16, No. 6/7, pp. 199-223. > - what types of characters? (real, integer, text, etc) Yep. Also cyclical data (months, seasons) colors, lengths, shapes -- I'm afraid this could list could be expanded quite a bit, if you go beyond primitive types. > - what types of data (text, images, other formats?) I would suggest that any MIME content-type could potentially be useful, including video/mpeg, audio/wav, etc. Don Kirkup wrote: > For example, how could retrieval of descriptive information across a > department or institution be facilitated? Is it because of the sheer > flexibility in how the characters can be defined using DELTA, that querying > across projects is difficult to say the least, unless the character set is > global that is (and therefore with a lot of redundacy)? I agree. XML only solves the syntax problem. The semantics problem can't be solved as easily with technology, but would rely either on community agreement, or on extensive mappings between various ontologies. I think. > Can character definitions be constrained without making too tight a > straight-jacket for oneself? Might it be possible to represent taxon > character descriptors by for example an entity/property/value (eg. > leaf/shape/ovate) based schema? There is value in straightjackets, especially of the schema type. For example, one could make a perfectly decent database using a single table looking like this: <pre> +---+------------+-------------+-----+-----------+-------+ |id | table_name | column_name | row | value | type | +---+------------+-------------+-----+-----------+-------+ | 1 | city | population | 22 | 2,000,000 | int | +---+------------+-------------+-----+-----------+-------+ | 2 | city | name | 22 | Boston | char | +---+------------+-------------+-----+-----------+-------+ | 3 | person | name | 34 | Mr. Magoo | char | +---+------------+-------------+-----+-----------+-------+ | etc... +--- </pre> But by avoiding the straightjacket of a fixed chema, we've made our queries *really* tough to formulate. I think that this is a classic tradeoff in any modelling methodology. > This on the face of it would seem to map onto an XML element/attribute/value > schema pretty well. Would that help define more closely how we construct > characters and maybe even prove universally applicable for all character > types? Great question. Leigh? Anyone? :-) > Could one constrain further by expressing within the schema the hierarchical > relationships between the elements(eg 'blade' and 'petiole' as child > elements of leaf') or would the introduction of terminology into the > 'standard' be a step too far? This would be The Lexicon, no? It does seem to go beyond the task of making a file format for data transfer. But it gets my vote nevertheless. Jean-Marc Vanel wrote: > - The main existing formats, if we count by the number of species > covered, are not DELTA, or other Computer Taxonomists's inventions, they are the > semi-formal formats of the existing floras in plain text, which contain > the vast majority of existing species; Perhaps not even semi-formal? (I'm reminded of Richard Montague's "English as a Formal Language" paper which presents a viewpoint that is still popular in some formal semantic theories.) ..."Computer Taxonomists" -- ouch! > - the priority is to put this existing material in XML (this can be done > using standard parsing techniques); A bit optimistic? I think that even defining a context free grammar for these data and constructing a lexicon will not get around some of the classic problems of anaphora and ambiguities arising from multiple quantifiers. However, I grant that it can probably be done -- somehow and sort of. :-) (You've probably seen Andrew Taylors work? http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~andrewt/papers/nlp_vlkb95/nlp_vlkb95.html) > - we can then : - make queries using all the power of XPath A new W3C recommmendation -- Hurrah! But not a general enough inference engine for RDF, I suspect? > - make all kinds of RDF statements on the species from the outside, > e.g. an entomologist can, in an buterfly description, or any context, > indicate that it is a pollinizator for some plant species (see Annex) I'm a big fan of RDF and I've experimented with it myself. Gregor Hagedorn also mentioned RDF in the context of XML during the recent TDWG meeting. So it's great to see it come up again! That said, I must also say that for the purposes of this group, I do have some reservations about RDF being a technology that is mainstream enough as yet to base a community effort on. More likely, the XML community will use XML-Schema or something else more like relational database technology and less like predicate logic. > These techniques are in the straight line of the World Wide Web > Consortium Recommandations. Yes, but you have to admit that this is one recommendation that hasn't been terribly popular. The recommendation was made in February and has really not seen much enthusiatic adoption, so I think we should approach this one with caution. I say this because, for example: - Zero books available (at least from amazon.com) so far. - W3C's Timeline: News, Events, and Publications lists nothing since March 1999 - IBM has apparently dropped their RDF Parser - Even the current maintainer of the W3C's SiRPAC parser, Sergey Melnik, has doubts about RDF saying: "RDF 1.0 has a number of legacy, heritage or flawed features, that make both the specification and implementation intransparent. To make my criticism a bit more constructive, consider as examples the following issues: "- aboutEachPrefix: if you create an RDF model using RDF/XML that contains aboutEachPrefix, and serialize it back, the intended semantics is lost, since this aboutEachPrefix is not reflected in the model. "- xml:lang does not appear in the model either and is therefore also a bug in the specs. Either a new triple has to be appended to the model, or xml:lang should be ignored. "- there is no principle difference between rdf:ID and rdf:about. There would be one if you appended rdf:isDefinedBy to every resource defined by rdf:ID. Not in the model - no semantics. "-... "Before such issues have been resolved, I'd be very careful about motivating people to implement something. Currently I am a courtesy maintainer of SiRPAC. However, to be frank, I'm not willing to rewrite/adapt it as long as the specs are flawed." From http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-interest/1999Nov/0068.html > Using such RDF statements, it is also possible to add sets of > characters � la DELTA. Yes. The attraction for me here is that not only would we not have to write parsers, we wouldn't have to write inference engines either. I've been playing around with SiLRI (Simple Logic-based RDF Interpreter) and I think it's terrific. However, as I said before, it is not clear that these kinds of tools will become mainstream. (I hope they do though) > So I propose to decouple the description form the specific taxonomic issues, > such as finding keys applying to specific subsets of species, minimal > sets of characters, etc. This is good design since no consensus can be > quickly achieved on taxonomic issues, since researchers want to keep their > freedom. > > It seems that what the majority of botanists (and others biologists and > the humanity in general) needs the most urgently, is a usable World Flora. > > Moreover, having reference descriptions available as URI (Uniform > Resource Identifiers) on the Web, allows different taxonomists researchers to > link their formal descriptions to a common reference, and to become > interoperable. I pretty much agree with you on all fronts (ask anybody) but I worry that what you describe could be a massive undertaking and may be beyond the scope of what we can practically accomplish here. It would be terrific to see it done though, especially with RDF. OK, enough rambling from me -- best to all, -Noel p.s. Tim Berners-Lee says a lot about RDF. Especially good is this: "Why the RDF model is different from the XML model" http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/RDF-XML.html

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Re: The end of DELTA?
by Jean-Marc Vanel 22 Nov '99

22 Nov '99

Hello - The main existing formats, if we count by the number of species covered, are not DELTA, or other Computer Taxonomists's inventions, they are the semi-formal formats of the existing floras in plain text, which contain the vast majority of existing species; - the priority is to put this existing material in XML (this can be done using standard parsing techniques); - we can then : - make queries using all the power of XPath - make all kinds of RDF statements on the species from the outside, e.g. an entomologist can, in an buterfly description, or any context, indicate that it is a pollinizator for some plant species (see Annex) These techniques are in the straight line of the World Wide Web Consortium Recommandations. Using such RDF statements, it is also possible to add sets of characters à la DELTA. So I propose to decouple the description form the specific taxonomic issues, such as finding keys applying to specific subsets of species, minimal sets of characters, etc. This is good design since no consensus can be quickly achieved on taxonomic issues, since researchers want to keep their freedom. It seems that what the majority of botanists (and others biologists and the humanity in general) needs the most urgently, is a usable World Flora. Moreover, having reference descriptions available as URI (Uniform Resource Identifiers) on the Web, allows different taxonomists researchers to link their formal descriptions to a common reference, and to become interoperable. See much more details on the Worldwide Botanical Database project at : http://jmvanel.free.fr P.S. Can somebody point me to documents on: XDELTA, NEXUS and XDF Regards Jean-Marc Vanel ANNEX USING RDF statement and Xpointer to add information on a plant species <rdf:RDF xml:lang="en" xmlns:rdf="http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#" xmlns:rdfs="http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/PR-rdf-schema-19990303#"> <rdf:Description about="htpp://www.rbgkew.org.uk/Flora_Europaeae.xml#xptr(species[genus='Viola'][name='riviniana'])"> <pollinizator>Aglais urticae</pollinizator> </rdf:Description> </rdf:RDF> Of course I give no guaranty on the entomological truth of this statement.

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Re: The end of DELTA?
by Don Kirkup 22 Nov '99

22 Nov '99

Mauro The proposition I think is that (at some level) it is desirable to transfer data between formats (such as DELTA, NEXUS or LUCID). If this is the case then there are difficulties that need addressing, specifically the loss of information that occurs. To some extent the different formats do deal with different subsets of 'descriptive' information, for example you might argue that characters used in phylogenetic analysis are defined differently from those used in identification programs. Nevertheless, there are still areas of overlap between two or more of the exisiting standards that are not currently supported by the available import/export routines (eg. character dependencies to name one). The approach of amalgamating (what some might regard as) the 'proprietary' formats into a single 'superstandard' wasn't much favoured since that would only provide only for exisiting functionality. What was talked about at the TDWG meeting was to take a step back from existing standards in order to look at the whole area of descriptive data in the broadest sense (and for my money that includes marking-up or tagging of descriptive texts). As Gregor has already summarised elsewhere, the first step of the discussion should be a requirement analysis, the second the possible use of XML as a metaformat. On the subject of the latter, XDELTA looks to me to be a straight representation of (a subset of) the DELTA standard in XML. While this does open up the scope for parsing, it isn't necessarily the approach I was thinking of. For example, how could retrieval of descriptive information across a department or institution be facilitated? Is it because of the sheer flexibility in how the characters can be defined using DELTA, that querying across projects is difficult to say the least, unless the character set is global that is (and therefore with a lot of redundacy)? Can character definitions be constrained without making too tight a straight-jacket for oneself? Might it be possible to represent taxon character descriptors by for example an entity/property/value (eg. leaf/shape/ovate) based schema? This on the face of it would seem to map onto an XML element/attribute/value schema pretty well. Would that help define more closely how we construct characters and maybe even prove universally applicable for all character types? Could one constrain further by expressing within the schema the hierarchical relationships between the elements(eg 'blade' and 'petiole' as child elements of leaf') or would the introduction of terminology into the 'standard' be a step too far? don Dr Don Kirkup Herbarium RBG Kew > Dear Computer Taxonomists, > > Greetings, and welcome to the new discussion list... > > As an attempt to start a discussion, I am posting this to ask: do we all > really agree that there should be a new standard for descriptive data > based on XML, as a substitute for DELTA (as well as NEXUS and XDF)? Or > should we instead just try to improve one of the existing formats? As of > myself, when I first read the specifications of "XDELTA", I was under > the impression that in some way the DELTA format as we know it would > then become obsolete... But what of NEXUS, or XDF? Has anyone considered > of the integration of these formats plus DELTA into a single new, > XML-based, format for descriptive data? > > Just "food for thought"... > > Best wishes, > > -- > + - - - - - - - - - - - - Mauro J. Cavalcanti - - - - - - - - - - - - + > | Setor de Paleovertebrados, Departamento de Geologia e Paleontologia | > | Museu Nacional do Rio de Janeiro | > | Quinta da Boa Vista, 20940-040, Rio de Janeiro, RJ, BRASIL | > | E-mail: maurobio(a)acd.ufrj.br | > | Home Page: http://read.at/digitax/personal.html | > + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + > "Life is complex. It consists of real and imaginary parts." >

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Re: The end of DELTA?
by Leigh Dodds 22 Nov '99

22 Nov '99

> As an attempt to start a discussion, I am posting this to ask: do we all > really agree that there should be a new standard for descriptive data > based on XML, as a substitute for DELTA (as well as NEXUS and XDF)? Or > should we instead just try to improve one of the existing formats? >>>From a purely technological perspective I'm convinced that XML is an excellent mechanism for describing structured data - which is what much of DELTA is all about. Standardising on something like XML means that custom parsers/parsing routines can be eliminated, making it much easier to write software to manipulate the information. I've already run over these issues in my web page on XDELTA. > As of myself, when I first read the specifications of "XDELTA", I was under > the impression that in some way the DELTA format as we know it would > then become obsolete... But what of NEXUS, or XDF? Has anyone considered > of the integration of these formats plus DELTA into a single new, > XML-based, format for descriptive data? :) I didn't mean to imply that, just that using XML would provide a better underlying data format. The reason I've been holding fire on additional work is that I believe that a proper requirements analysis needs to be done to decide what data needs to be captured by the standard - does DELTA meet all the current requirements of taxonomists? Are there other standards (e.g. NEXUS, etc) which are better suited to some applications/data? Can these be integrated into a single new standard (or modular standard)? As a computer scientist rather than a taxonomist I don't feel qualified to address these issues, as I'm not working with this data on a daily basis. Perhaps we should start by building a list of requirements and then measuring DELTA, NEXUS, etc against them to see whether they meet them. If they do - then theres no reason for change, if they don't then it may be time for a new standard. XML is only one possible 'syntax' for such a standard, but its one which has a lot of software support. Note that when I refer to DELTA I refer to the data/file format specifically and not the application software. These should be evaluated separately. So, what do people see as the basic requirements for this kind of format? - ease of use (i.e. authoring) - ease of processing (parsing, validating, reading, converting) - ease of sharing (i.e. distribution) - open-ness (i.e. proprietary/non-proprietary) - ease of extensibility (i.e. ability to add more information cleanly at a later data) - internationalization - un-abiguity of data representation - unlimited size of data sets? (i.e. any limitation on character names, lengths, item names, numbers, etc) What types of data need to be modelled by the format? (this can be a post-requirements gathering step, but some consideration needs to be given early on to measure the 'success' of the current formats) - what types of characters? (real, integer, text, etc) - what types of data (text, images, other formats?) Just some thoughts. L.

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The end of DELTA?
by Mauro J. Cavalcanti 22 Nov '99

22 Nov '99

Gregor Hagedorn wrote: > > --------------------------------------------------- > * Call for participation in email discussion list * > --------------------------------------------------- > > Dear colleagues, > > As agreed upon at the TDWG meeting in Harvard last month, a TDWG > subgroup will attempt to analyze the requirements for a new standard > for descriptive data based on XML. It is hoped that this standard > will reach universal recognition to become at some point a successor > to existing standards like DELTA, NEXUS, or XDF. The new standard > should be carefully drafted and aggreed upon by consensus. We > especially hope for the participation of those not present at > Harvard. Dear Computer Taxonomists, Greetings, and welcome to the new discussion list... As an attempt to start a discussion, I am posting this to ask: do we all really agree that there should be a new standard for descriptive data based on XML, as a substitute for DELTA (as well as NEXUS and XDF)? Or should we instead just try to improve one of the existing formats? As of myself, when I first read the specifications of "XDELTA", I was under the impression that in some way the DELTA format as we know it would then become obsolete... But what of NEXUS, or XDF? Has anyone considered of the integration of these formats plus DELTA into a single new, XML-based, format for descriptive data? Just "food for thought"... Best wishes, -- + - - - - - - - - - - - - Mauro J. Cavalcanti - - - - - - - - - - - - + | Setor de Paleovertebrados, Departamento de Geologia e Paleontologia | | Museu Nacional do Rio de Janeiro | | Quinta da Boa Vista, 20940-040, Rio de Janeiro, RJ, BRASIL | | E-mail: maurobio(a)acd.ufrj.br | | Home Page: http://read.at/digitax/personal.html | + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + "Life is complex. It consists of real and imaginary parts."

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Re: (GEN) CD's for Xmas
by Bernie 08 Aug '99

08 Aug '99

At 11:42 PM 12/9/99 +0100, you wrote: >Hello > >I'm pressed to tell my wishes for Christmas. >Do you have suggestions of CD's about botany, zoology, or ecology ? > >Thanks >JMV > Try http://www.publish.csiro.au/books/titles.cfm?CID=2

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