Characters and States and GUIDs and descriptive data
Robert Huber
rhuber at WDC-MARE.ORG
Wed Jan 25 16:18:51 CET 2006
Thank you Roger!
I heard about DELTA and SDD seems to be very interesting! So when we are
thinking about GUIDs in this context I assume you would assign a GUID on the
'contextual meaning of terms'? E.g. what open means when you describe a open
umbilicus?
A GUID would then direct the user to a document/ db entry which explains
that ? Or would the GUID be assigned to a complete SDD description?
best regards,
Robert
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Taxonomic Databases Working Group GUID Project
[mailto:TDWG-GUID at LISTSERV.NHM.KU.EDU]Im Auftrag von Roger Hyam
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2006 16:02
An: TDWG-GUID at LISTSERV.NHM.KU.EDU
Betreff: Re: Characters and States and GUIDs and descriptive data
Hi Robert,
Characters and States are the building blocks of the DEscription Language
for TAxonomy (DELTA). This has been around since the 1980s and is being
updated as Structure of Descriptive Data (SDD) - which I am fairly ignorant
on but believe has the same basic notion of characters and states but one of
the SDD guys would be better talking about that.
The DELTA home page is here: http://biodiversity.bio.uno.edu/delta/ but
seems to be down now. There is plenty on Google.
The SDD wiki here: http://wiki.cs.umb.edu/twiki/bin/view/SDD/WebHome (SDD
also uses class in a different sense.)
I think what I was saying is that the usage of classes and states does not
fit well with the use of a thesaurus like approach as the 'traditional'
meaning of these things is not clear in an open world and that this may not
just be a problem with DELTA style data but we may come across it in other
places.
Hope this clarifies things.
Roger
Robert Huber wrote:
Dear Roger,
I could not reall yunderstand what you and Kevin mean by Characters and
States.
From the example you gave, it appears to be like classes (character)
and attributes (states) or you want to assign GUIDs to something like
Thesaurus entries? But maybe I completely misunderstood what you meant..
best regards,Robert
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Taxonomic Databases Working Group GUID Project
[mailto:TDWG-GUID at LISTSERV.NHM.KU.EDU]Im Auftrag von Roger Hyam
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2006 12:35
An: TDWG-GUID at LISTSERV.NHM.KU.EDU
Betreff: Characters and States and GUIDs and descriptive data
Kevin mentioning Characters and States and GUIDs got me thinking and I
was wondering if we could cover something along these lines before the
meeting. Please excuse me if this has been dealt with on the list. I will
use a Delta type illustration to my point. This may not apply to SDD so
much - apologies if it doesn't but I am trying to get at a general point. My
comments may be more general to GUIDs though...
When we are dealing with GUIDs we are talking in an Open World model
as opposed to a Closed World model. If I search Google (open world) and
don't find something it isn't because it doesn't exist - it may exist but
not be found for a host of reasons. If I search my local SQL DB (closed
world) and I don't find something then I can safely assume it isn't there.
(This may be a naive description of Open vs Close worlds but it illustrates
the point).
Taking this to the Characters/States model. We have a character that
looks like this:
Flower Colour (GUID_c01)
- red (GUID_s01)
- white (GUID_s02)
- yellow (GUID_s03)
And I score a taxon as "Rose has flower colour red". If I have given
GUIDs to the states then I don't need to use the GUID for the character.
"Rose has s01" is fine as the character is implied.
Can we assume from this statement that my rose does not have white or
yellow flowers? Yes - but only if it is a closed world and we know that the
character never changes (or hasn't changed since the date of the assertion).
If the choice when scoring had been:
Flower Colour (GUID_c01)
- red (GUID_s01)
- white (GUID_s02)
- yellow (GUID_s03)
- dark pink (GUID_s99)
I may have chosen "Rose has s99" of "Rose has s99 and s01" but I
simply didn't have that choice before.
So the thing that is troubling me is that Character/State uses a
closed world model where not finding something implies that it doesn't have
that attribute. In an open world system one can only draw conclusions from
presence not absence. We could give GUIDs to characters and states but it
doesn't get us very far as it doesn't permit us to re-use or extend them in
a simple way. (sure you could build an inheritance model for characters and
states but this rapidly becomes a complete ontology language of which there
are a few already available!).
My gut feeling is that in the long term the Character/State model
doesn't transfer well into an open world model. I suspect this problem may
occur in other descriptive areas where the existing model specifies
noun-adjective pairs that I don't have experience of. Perhaps we could
explore this a little. Perhaps my guts need straightening out!
Your thoughts greatly appreciated.
Roger
--
-------------------------------------
Roger Hyam
Technical Architect
Taxonomic Databases Working Group
-------------------------------------
http://www.tdwg.org
roger at tdwg.org
+44 1578 722782
-------------------------------------
--
-------------------------------------
Roger Hyam
Technical Architect
Taxonomic Databases Working Group
-------------------------------------
http://www.tdwg.org
roger at tdwg.org
+44 1578 722782
-------------------------------------
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D938220715-25012006>Thank=20
you Roger!</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D938220715-25012006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D938220715-25012006>I=20
heard about DELTA and SDD seems to be very interesting! So when we=20
are thinking about GUIDs in this context I assume =
</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D938220715-25012006>you would assign=20
a GUID on the 'contextual meaning of terms'? E.g. what open means =
when you=20
describe a open umbilicus?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D938220715-25012006>A GUID=20
would then direct the user to a document/ db entry which explains that =
? =20
Or would the GUID be assigned to a complete </SPAN></FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN class=3D938220715-25012006>SDD=20
description?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D938220715-25012006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D938220715-25012006>best=20
regards,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D938220715-25012006>Robert</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D938220715-25012006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----<BR><B>Von:</B> Taxonomic =
Databases=20
Working Group GUID Project [mailto:TDWG-GUID at LISTSERV.NHM.KU.EDU]<B>Im =
Auftrag=20
von </B>Roger Hyam<BR><B>Gesendet:</B> Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2006=20
16:02<BR><B>An:</B> TDWG-GUID at LISTSERV.NHM.KU.EDU<BR><B>Betreff:</B> =
Re:=20
Characters and States and GUIDs and descriptive =
data<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>Hi=20
Robert,<BR><BR>Characters and States are the building blocks of the=20
DEscription Language for TAxonomy (DELTA). This has been around since =
the=20
1980s and is being updated as Structure of Descriptive Data (SDD) - =
which I am=20
fairly ignorant on but believe has the same basic notion of characters =
and=20
states but one of the SDD guys would be better talking about =
that.<BR><BR>The=20
DELTA home page is here: <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext=20
=
href=3D"http://biodiversity.bio.uno.edu/delta/">http://biodiversity.bio.u=
no.edu/delta/</A>=20
but seems to be down now. There is plenty on Google.<BR><BR>The SDD =
wiki here:=20
<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext=20
=
href=3D"http://wiki.cs.umb.edu/twiki/bin/view/SDD/WebHome">http://wiki.cs=
.umb.edu/twiki/bin/view/SDD/WebHome</A>=20
(SDD also uses class in a different sense.)<BR><BR>I think what I was =
saying=20
is that the usage of classes and states does not fit well with the use =
of a=20
thesaurus like approach as the 'traditional' meaning of these things =
is not=20
clear in an open world and that this may not just be a problem with =
DELTA=20
style data but we may come across it in other places.<BR><BR>Hope this =
clarifies things.<BR><BR>Roger<BR><BR><BR><BR>Robert Huber wrote:=20
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=3DmidCPEBIOADNJBNOOJKJBLHOENBCLAA.rhuber at wdc-mare.org =
type=3D"cite">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2802" name=3DGENERATOR>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D304040013-25012006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Dear Roger,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D304040013-25012006></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D304040013-25012006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I=20
could not reall yunderstand what you and Kevin mean by =
Characters and=20
States. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D304040013-25012006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>From the example you gave, it appears to be =
like classes=20
(character) and attributes (states) or you want to assign =
GUIDs to=20
something like Thesaurus entries? But m</FONT></SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3D304040013-25012006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>aybe I=20
completely misunderstood what you meant..</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D304040013-25012006></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D304040013-25012006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>best regards,Robert</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(0,0,255) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----<BR><B>Von:</B> =
Taxonomic=20
Databases Working Group GUID Project [<A =
class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext=20
=
href=3D"mailto:TDWG-GUID at LISTSERV.NHM.KU.EDU">mailto:TDWG-GUID at LISTSERV.N=
HM.KU.EDU</A>]<B>Im=20
Auftrag von </B>Roger Hyam<BR><B>Gesendet:</B> Mittwoch, 25. =
Januar 2006=20
12:35<BR><B>An:</B> <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-abbreviated=20
=
href=3D"mailto:TDWG-GUID at LISTSERV.NHM.KU.EDU">TDWG-GUID at LISTSERV.NHM.KU.E=
DU</A><BR><B>Betreff:</B>=20
Characters and States and GUIDs and descriptive=20
data<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><BR>Kevin mentioning Characters and =
States and=20
GUIDs got me thinking and I was wondering if we could cover =
something=20
along these lines before the meeting. Please excuse me if this has =
been=20
dealt with on the list. I will use a Delta type illustration to my =
point.=20
This may not apply to SDD so much - apologies if it doesn't but I =
am=20
trying to get at a general point. My comments may be more general =
to GUIDs=20
though...<BR><BR>When we are dealing with GUIDs we are talking in =
an Open=20
World model as opposed to a Closed World model. If I search Google =
(open=20
world) and don't find something it isn't because it doesn't exist =
- it may=20
exist but not be found for a host of reasons. If I search my local =
SQL DB=20
(closed world) and I don't find something then I can safely assume =
it=20
isn't there. (This may be a naive description of Open vs Close =
worlds but=20
it illustrates the point).<BR><BR>Taking this to the =
Characters/States=20
model. We have a character that looks like this:<BR><BR>Flower =
Colour=20
(GUID_c01)<BR>- red (GUID_s01)<BR>- white (GUID_s02)<BR>- yellow=20
(GUID_s03)<BR><BR>And I score a taxon as "Rose <B>has</B> =
flower=20
colour red". If I have given GUIDs to the states then I don't need =
to use=20
the GUID for the character. "Rose has s01" is fine as the =
character is=20
implied.<BR><BR>Can we assume from this statement that my rose =
does not=20
have white or yellow flowers? Yes - but only if it is a closed =
world and=20
we know that the character never changes (or hasn't changed since =
the date=20
of the assertion). If the choice when scoring had =
been:<BR><BR>Flower=20
Colour (GUID_c01)<BR>- red (GUID_s01)<BR>- white (GUID_s02)<BR>- =
yellow=20
(GUID_s03)<BR>- dark pink (GUID_s99)<BR><BR>I may have chosen =
"Rose has=20
s99" of "Rose has s99 and s01" but I simply didn't have that =
choice=20
before. <BR><BR>So the thing that is troubling me is that =
Character/State=20
uses a closed world model where not finding something implies that =
it=20
doesn't have that attribute. In an open world system one can only =
draw=20
conclusions from presence not absence. We could give GUIDs to =
characters=20
and states but it doesn't get us very far as it doesn't permit us =
to=20
re-use or extend them in a simple way. (sure you could build an=20
inheritance model for characters and states but this rapidly =
becomes a=20
complete ontology language of which there are a few already=20
available!).<BR><BR>My gut feeling is that in the long term the=20
Character/State model doesn't transfer well into an open world =
model. I=20
suspect this problem may occur in other descriptive areas where =
the=20
existing model specifies noun-adjective pairs that I don't have =
experience=20
of. Perhaps we could explore this a little. Perhaps my guts need=20
straightening out!<BR><BR>Your thoughts greatly=20
appreciated.<BR><BR>Roger<BR><BR><PRE class=3Dmoz-signature =
cols=3D"72">--
-------------------------------------
Roger Hyam
Technical Architect
Taxonomic Databases Working Group
-------------------------------------
<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext =
href=3D"http://www.tdwg.org">http://www.tdwg.org</A>
<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-abbreviated =
href=3D"mailto:roger at tdwg.org">roger at tdwg.org</A>
+44 1578 722782
-------------------------------------
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><PRE class=3Dmoz-signature =
cols=3D"72">--
-------------------------------------
Roger Hyam
Technical Architect
Taxonomic Databases Working Group
-------------------------------------
<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext =
href=3D"http://www.tdwg.org">http://www.tdwg.org</A>
<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-abbreviated =
href=3D"mailto:roger at tdwg.org">roger at tdwg.org</A>
+44 1578 722782
-------------------------------------
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