Steve, OK thanks, I get that now: LSID is an element of a query response. I guess that leads to more questions about where the LSID goes in which response formats. Just add an LSID concept to Darwin Core for instance?
But, if SPARQL is a protocol, how does it layer on top of or parallel to all the other protocols that TDWG is attempting to standardize? Or are we proposing it as the "protocol to rule them all"?
At least with DIGIR, imperfect as it is, it was clear that it was both query/response and protocol. (The complete flow diagram fits on one screen) As we break this all apart and grow it, I think it is becoming difficult for those outside to follow the model and makes it more important to describe the complete query, protocol, response stack for the TDWG membership that will be called to recommend and vote on it.
Which reminds me that we still need the Rosetta Stone that resolves all these things that are on the table: DIGIR, BioCASE, TAPIR, Wasabi, SPARQL, LSID, PURL, RDF, OWL, OWL-DL, WSDL, SOAP, HTTP GET plus XML Schema - Darwin Core(Base plus extensions like GML), ABCD, TCS, SDD, etc. and more. And resolves them in a way that the general TDWG membership can fully grasp during the upcoming TDWG meeting.
Chuck
________________________________
From: Steven Perry [mailto:smperry@ku.edu] Sent: Mon 6/19/2006 10:22 PM To: Chuck Miller Cc: S.Hinchcliffe@kew.org; roger@tdwg.org; tdwg-guid@mailman.nhm.ku.edu Subject: Re: [Tdwg-guid] Throttling searches [ Scanned for viruses ]
Hi Chuck,
I've been thinking of the case you describe as a query operation. A query operation would take match conditions as input and, when applied to a set of RDF metadata, returns either an RDF graph or values bound to variables (analogous to an SQL select statement). Either type of output may contain references to other data objects by LSID which would have to be resolved by clients.
This query operation is not supported by the LSID spec and requires a distinct service. We've implemented SPARQL as the query service for DiGIR2 (now called Wasabi). SPARQL is a W3C candidate recommendation and is both a query language and a protocol.
See the following for more information:
http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/ http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-protocol/
-Steve
Chuck Miller wrote:
This is probably a dumb question and exposes my ignorance, but what if the originating query is actually "Get all LSIDs where Family = Orchidaceae". That seems the more likely scenario to me rather than get one LSID. And that's the one that needs a throttle.
Chuck
*From:* Sally Hinchcliffe [mailto:S.Hinchcliffe@kew.org] *Sent:* Mon 6/19/2006 7:01 AM *To:* roger@tdwg.org *Cc:* tdwg-guid@mailman.nhm.ku.edu *Subject:* Re: [Tdwg-guid] Throttling searches [ Scanned for viruses ]
Hi Roger Thanks for this ... I _think_ I understand it but Nicky is on leave this week so I won't know if I do or not till after she returns
The system doesn't have to be completely villain proof, just slow down most of the villains so everyone else can get a look in Sally
You don't! The LSID resolves to the binding to the getMetadata() method
- which is a plain old fashioned URL. At this point the LSID authority
has done its duty and we are just on a plain HTTP GET call so you
can do
whatever you can do with any regular HTTP GET. You could stipulate another header field or (more simply) give priority service for those who append a valid user id to the URL (&user_id=12345)
So there is no throttle on resolving the LSID to the getMetadata
binding
(which is cheap) but there is a throttle on the actual call to get the metadata method. Really you need to do this because bad people may be able to tell from the URL how to scrape the source and bypass the LSID resolver after the first call anyhow. This is especially true if the
URL
contains the IPNI record ID which is likely.
Here is an example using Rod's tester.
http://linnaeus.zoology.gla.ac.uk/~rpage/lsid/tester/?q=urn:lsid:ubio.org:na... http://linnaeus.zoology.gla.ac.uk/%7Erpage/lsid/tester/?q=urn:lsid:ubio.org:namebank:11815
The getMetadata() method for this LSID:
urn:lsid:ubio.org:namebank:11815
Is bound to this URL:
http://names.ubio.org/authority/metadata.php?lsid=urn:lsid:ubio.org:namebank...
So ubio would just have to give preferential services to calls like
this:
http://names.ubio.org/authority/metadata.php?lsid=urn:lsid:ubio.org:namebank... http://names.ubio.org/authority/metadata.php?lsid=urn:lsid:ubio.org:namebank:11815&user_id=rogerhyam1392918790
If rogerhyam had paid his membership fees this year.
Does this make sense?
Roger p.s. You could do this on the web pages as well with a clever little thing to write dynamic tokens into the links so that it doesn't degrade the regular browsing experience and only stops scrapers - but that is beyond my remit at the moment ;)
p.p.s. You could wrap this in https if you were paranoid about people stealing tokens - but this is highly unlikely I believe.
Sally Hinchcliffe wrote:
How can we pass a token with an LSID?
I think the only way to throttle in these situations is to have some notion of who the client is and the only way to do that is to
have some
kind of token exchange over HTTP saying who they are. Basically
you have
to have some kind of client registration system or you can never distinguish between a call from a new client and a repeat call.
The use
of IP address is a pain because so many people are now behind
some kind
of NAT gateway.
How about this for a plan:
You could give a degraded services to people who don't pass a
token (a 5
second delay perhaps) and offer a quicker service to registered
users
who pass a token (but then perhaps limit the number of calls they
make).
This would mean you could offer a universal service even to those
with
naive client software but a better service to those who play
nicely. You
could also get better stats on who is using the service.
So there are ways that this could be done. I expect people will
come up
with a host of different ways. It is outside LSIDs though.
Roger
Sally Hinchcliffe wrote:
It's not an LSID issue per se, but LSIDs will make it harder to
slow
searches down. For instance, Google restricts use of its spell checker to 1000 a day by use of a key which is passed in with each request. Obviously this can't be done with LSIDs as then they wouldn't be the same for each user. The other reason why it's relevant to LSIDs is simply that
providing
a list of all relevant IPNI LSIDs (not necessary to the LSID implementation but a nice to have for caching / lookups for other systems using our LSIDs) also makes life easier for the
datascrapers
to operate
Also I thought ... here's a list full of clever people perhaps they will have some suggestions
Sally
Is this an LSID issue? LSIDs essential provide a binding
service between
an name and one or more web services (we default to HTTP GET
bindings).
It isn't really up to the LSID authority to administer any
policies
regarding the web service but simply to point at it. It is up
to the web
service to do things like throttling, authentication and
authorization.
Imagine, for example, that the different services had different policies. It may be reasonable not to restrict the
getMetadata() calls
but to restrict the getData() calls.
The use of LSIDs does not create any new problems that weren't
there
with web page scraping - or scraping of any other web service.
Just my thoughts...
Roger
Ricardo Scachetti Pereira wrote:
> Sally, > > You raised a really important issue that we had not really
addressed
> at the meeting. Thanks for that. > > I would say that we should not constrain the resolution of
LSIDs if
> we expect our LSID infrastructure to work. LSIDs will be the
basis of
> our architecture so we better have good support for that. > > However, that is sure a limiting factor. Also server
efficiency will
> likely vary quite a lot, depending on underlying system
optimizations
> and all. > > So I think that the solution for this problem is in
caching LSID
> responses on the server LSID stack. Basically, after resolving
an LSID
> once, your server should be able to resolve it again and again
really
> quickly, until something on the metadata that is related to
that id changes.
> > I haven't looked at this aspect of the LSID software
stack, but
> maybe others can say something about it. In any case I'll do some > research on it and get back to you. > > Again, thanks for bringing it up. > > Cheers, > > Ricardo > > > Sally Hinchcliffe wrote: > > > >> There are enough discontinuities in IPNI ids that 1,2,3 would
quickly
>> run into the sand. I agree it's not a new problem - I just
hate to
>> think I'm making life easier for the data scrapers >> Sally >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> It can be a problem but I'm not sure if there is a simple
solution ... and how different is the LSID crawler scenario from an http://www.ipni.org/ipni/plantsearch?id= 1,2,3,4,5 ... 9999999 scenario?
>>> >>> Paul >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: tdwg-guid-bounces@mailman.nhm.ku.edu >>> [mailto:tdwg-guid-bounces@mailman.nhm.ku.edu]On Behalf Of Sally >>> Hinchcliffe >>> Sent: 15 June 2006 12:08 >>> To: tdwg-guid@mailman.nhm.ku.edu >>> Subject: [Tdwg-guid] Throttling searches [ Scanned for
viruses ]
>>> >>> >>> Hi all >>> another question that has come up here. >>> >>> As discussed at the meeting, we're thinking of providing a
complete
>>> download of all IPNI LSIDs plus a label (name and author,
probably)
>>> which will be available as an annually produced download >>> >>> Most people will play nice and just resolve one or two LSIDs as >>> required, but by providing a complete list, we're making it
very easy
>>> for someone to write a crawler that hits every LSID in turn and >>> basically brings our server to its knees >>> >>> Anybody know of a good way of enforcing more polite
behaviour? We can
>>> make the download only available under a data supply
agreement that
>>> includes a clause limiting hit rates, or we could limit by
IP address
>>> (but this would ultimately block out services like Rod's simple >>> resolver). I beleive Google's spell checker uses a key which
has to
>>> be passed in as part of the query - obviously we can't do
that with
>>> LSIDs >>> >>> Any thoughts? Anyone think this is a problem? >>> >>> Sally >>> *** Sally Hinchcliffe >>> *** Computer section, Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew >>> *** tel: +44 (0)20 8332 5708 >>> *** S.Hinchcliffe@rbgkew.org.uk >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> TDWG-GUID mailing list >>> TDWG-GUID@mailman.nhm.ku.edu >>> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/tdwg-guid >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> TDWG-GUID mailing list >>> TDWG-GUID@mailman.nhm.ku.edu >>> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/tdwg-guid >>> >>> >>> >>> >> *** Sally Hinchcliffe >> *** Computer section, Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew >> *** tel: +44 (0)20 8332 5708 >> *** S.Hinchcliffe@rbgkew.org.uk >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> TDWG-GUID mailing list >> TDWG-GUID@mailman.nhm.ku.edu >> http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/tdwg-guid >> >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > TDWG-GUID mailing list > TDWG-GUID@mailman.nhm.ku.edu > http://mailman.nhm.ku.edu/mailman/listinfo/tdwg-guid > > >
>
Roger Hyam Technical Architect Taxonomic Databases Working Group
http://www.tdwg.org http://www.tdwg.org/ http://www.tdwg.org/ roger@tdwg.org
+44 1578 722782
*** Sally Hinchcliffe *** Computer section, Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew *** tel: +44 (0)20 8332 5708 *** S.Hinchcliffe@rbgkew.org.uk
--
Roger Hyam Technical Architect Taxonomic Databases Working Group
http://www.tdwg.org http://www.tdwg.org/ http://www.tdwg.org/ roger@tdwg.org
+44 1578 722782
*** Sally Hinchcliffe *** Computer section, Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew *** tel: +44 (0)20 8332 5708 *** S.Hinchcliffe@rbgkew.org.uk
--
Roger Hyam Technical Architect Taxonomic Databases Working Group
http://www.tdwg.org http://www.tdwg.org/ http://www.tdwg.org/ roger@tdwg.org
+44 1578 722782
*** Sally Hinchcliffe *** Computer section, Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew *** tel: +44 (0)20 8332 5708 *** S.Hinchcliffe@rbgkew.org.uk
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