identifiers for geologic samples

Tue Jan 31 22:47:15 CET 2006

Well at the moment the "switchboard" for handles is the Corporation for  
National Research Initiatives (http://www.cnri.reston.va.us/). And they  
don't need to maintain maps for millions of GUIDs, all the need is maps  
for the authorities. When I set up a handle server here in Glasgow (OK,  
""here" is now the Millenium Hotel in Durham, where I'm sampling a Red  
Oak), I was assigned handle 2254, which implies there are only a couple  
of thousand authorities (probably less less). I'm responsible for  
mapping all the GUIDs for this handle (e.g., ensuring that  
http://hdl.handle.net/2254/20971 resolves to an actual resource).

For a local provider, essentially all you need to provide is a mapping  
between your local identifiers and the handles, and the most direct one  
is to use primary keys (e.g., TROPICOS numbers for taxonomic names).

Regards

Rod

On 31 Jan 2006, at 22:33, Chuck Miller wrote:

> Rod,
> Great points.  I agree with you.
>
> I just think the dilemma lies in the desire to make GUIDs locatable.   
> I think the Handle system presumes that somewhere a "switchboard" is  
> being maintained that maps the handles to a URL.  Who has the funds  
> and resources to serve up this switchboard and most importantly  
> maintain it for millions of GUIDs?  If those resources are available,  
> then using a centralized redirection system like Handle avoids the  
> complications you describe.  But, without those central administrative  
> resources, then institutions will map their own GUIDs and to my mind  
> the simplest and most doable way to do that is just using a URL-based  
> approach, similar to LSID.  It's a compromise to get things moving.
>
> Chuck
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roderic Page
> To: TDWG-GUID at LISTSERV.NHM.KU.EDU
> Sent: 2006/01/30 12:50
> Subject: Re: [TDWG-GUID] identifiers for geologic samples
>
> Dear Chuck,
>
> Nobody that I'm aware of is suggesting replacing the DNS (least of all 
> me). Any solution that gets implement anytime soon will of course use 
> the Internet. Handles use the Internet in their current implementation,
>
> indeed anytime you look up a DOI, or follow a link in a journal that's 
> marked "CrossRef", you use handles.
>
> It's just that:
>
> (a) I'm a little wary of including Internet addresses in GUIDs, more 
> because the implied link to a site may disappear if the site 
> dies/moves/changes name. Yes there are mechanisms to deal with this, 
> but having an Internet address has the potential to mislead. Imagine if
>
> records served by MOBOT start to get served by, say, the New York 
> Botanical Garden. What will users think of resolving an LSID with 
> mobot.org in the name and getting a different server. A generation 
> brought up with phishing scams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phishing),
>
> and taught to check a URL is really what it says it is might get 
> nervous.
>
> (b) I'm not seriously arguing the DNS or the Internet are going away 
> anytime soon, however I think it is interesting that this is a concern 
> voiced by the people who are probably closest to us in mindset - 
> digital librarians. They care deeply about curation, have rare, old, 
> culturally valuable artefacts, and want systems that persist beyond 
> current fashions and/or technologies. Sound familiar? If so, let's ask 
> why have they gone for things like handles?
>
> Regards
>
> Rod
>
> On 28 Jan 2006, at 14:25, Chuck Miller wrote:
>
> > Although the Internet may change in the future and none of us have a 
> > crystal ball, some method for turning names (gbif.org) into network 
> > addresses (192.38.28.79) will be required.  For the forseeable future
>
> > that method on the Internet will almost certainly be DNS. The cascade
>
> > of the global DNS server network is key to making the Internet work. 
>
> > No matter what URL you put into your browser, the DNS network finds 
> > its way to the IP address of the server.  Trillions of dollars of 
> > commerce now depend upon this global standard. I think the analogy is
>
> > more like the teletype machines and the ASCII codes they used.  
> > Although we have Unicode now, it still includes ASCII. In 
> > communications, the new must continue to support the old.  This can  
> be
>
> > seen in the W3C projects that continue to build upon the previous 
> > standards.
> >
> > To replace the Internet's global DNS locator service with something 
> > unique to biodiversity seems like a complex, expensive and long-term 
> > proposition.  For the sake of getting things done in a timely manner,
>
> > I think we need to keep things simple and leverage the pieces of the 
> > puzzle that already work.  Implementing a GUID scheme is going to be 
> > tough enough without tackling a replacement for DNS.
> >
> > An issue that needs to be decided by the workshop is how much 
> > "abstraction" of a GUID is absolutely necessry if it must also be 
> > locatable through the Internet?  That is, is a compromise needed to 
> > allow embedding of domain names in order to enable use of the DNS to 
> > locate GUIDs.  Surely there is insufficient time, funds, and staff to
>
> > embark upon creation of a master switchboard (database) where the 
> > locations of millions of GUIDs are recorded and updated in  
> perpetuity.
> >
> > Chuck Miller
> > Missouri Botanical Garden
> >  
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Roderic Page
> > To: TDWG-GUID at LISTSERV.NHM.KU.EDU
> > Sent: 1/28/2006 2:58 AM
> > Subject: Re: [TDWG-GUID] identifiers for geologic samples
> >
> > On 28 Jan 2006, at 01:02, Richard Pyle wrote:
> >
> > > The more I think about it, the more I think this is the sort of 
> > system
> > > that
> > > would work well for our field.  A centralized issuer (which could
> > issue
> > > blocks of thousands or millions of numbers at a time),
> >
> > The major problem I see with this is that a central registry may be a
> > rate limiting step because it has to allocate blocks, it would also
> > decide for format of the last part of the identifier (which the
> > provider might not find desirable), and it may well lead to lots of
> > wasted identifiers (e.g., it allocates 100,000 to me, but I use 3 off
> > them).
> >
> > Would it not be better to devolve this? You can still have a central
> > registry. For example, Handles and DOIs work by having a central
> > registry for the prefix (e.g., "1018") and the provider is  
> responsible
> > for allocating the suffix locally.
> >
> >
> > > I'm not sure how wise it would be to create a new syntax standard,
> > > rather
> > > than go with one of the ones we've discussed.  But if (for example)
> > > using
> > > LSID, I personally think it would be preferable to establish a
> highly
> > > generic form, such as:
> > >
> > > urn:lsid:gbif.org:BioGUID:12345
> >
> > Without wishing to preempt some of the things I'm going to present at
> > the workshop, I'm going off LSIDs a little because of their reliance
> on
> > the Internet DNS. Apart from the hassle of mucking with the DNS
> records
> > to set them up (I suspect not every provider is going to find this
> easy
> > to do), it assumes that the Internet its present form is going to be
> > here forever, and it also embeds information in the identifier (e.g.,
> > "gbif.org") that currently has meaning, but over time may loose
> > meaning, or worse, be positively misleading (say if GBIF goes belly  
> up
> > and somebody else serves the data).
> >
> > Handles (including DOIs) and ARK have no information in the  
> identifier
> > (perhaps not strictly true for some DOIs, but that's by choice not
> > design), and also in principle don't need the internet. In the future
> > some other mode of information transport may come along, and they
> could
> > still be used.
> >
> > While it might be hard to imagine the Internet and the DNS going  
> away,
> > if anybody has a 5 1/4" floppy lying around, they'll be aware of how
> > hard it is to get information off it these days as 5 1/4" drives are
> > scarce as hens teeth -- the only one in my department is in an old PC
> > that is connected to the network. The digital library community seem
> > particularly sensitive to these issues, which is perhaps why they use
> > handles, DOIs, and ARK.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Rod
> >
> >
> >
> >
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -
> > ----------------------------------------
> > Professor Roderic D. M. Page
> > Editor, Systematic Biology
> > DEEB, IBLS
> > Graham Kerr Building
> > University of Glasgow
> > Glasgow G12 8QP
> > United Kingdom
> >
> > Phone:    +44 141 330 4778
> > Fax:      +44 141 330 2792
> > email:    r.page at bio.gla.ac.uk
> > web:      http://taxonomy.zoology.gla.ac.uk/rod/rod.html
> > reprints: http://taxonomy.zoology.gla.ac.uk/rod/pubs.html
> >
> > Subscribe to Systematic Biology through the Society of Systematic
> > Biologists Website:  http://systematicbiology.org
> > Search for taxon names at 
> > http://darwin.zoology.gla.ac.uk/~rpage/portal/
> > Find out what we know about a species at http://ispecies.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___________________________________________________________
> > Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with
> > voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> -
>
> ----------------------------------------
> Professor Roderic D. M. Page
> Editor, Systematic Biology
> DEEB, IBLS
> Graham Kerr Building
> University of Glasgow
> Glasgow G12 8QP
> United Kingdom
>
> Phone:    +44 141 330 4778
> Fax:      +44 141 330 2792
> email:    r.page at bio.gla.ac.uk
> web:      http://taxonomy.zoology.gla.ac.uk/rod/rod.html
> reprints: http://taxonomy.zoology.gla.ac.uk/rod/pubs.html
>
> Subscribe to Systematic Biology through the Society of Systematic
> Biologists Website:  http://systematicbiology.org
> Search for taxon names at  
> http://darwin.zoology.gla.ac.uk/~rpage/portal/
> Find out what we know about a species at http://ispecies.org
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
----------------------------------------
Professor Roderic D. M. Page
Editor, Systematic Biology
DEEB, IBLS
Graham Kerr Building
University of Glasgow
Glasgow G12 8QP
United Kingdom

Phone:    +44 141 330 4778
Fax:      +44 141 330 2792
email:    r.page at bio.gla.ac.uk
web:      http://taxonomy.zoology.gla.ac.uk/rod/rod.html
reprints: http://taxonomy.zoology.gla.ac.uk/rod/pubs.html

Subscribe to Systematic Biology through the Society of Systematic
Biologists Website:  http://systematicbiology.org
Search for taxon names at http://darwin.zoology.gla.ac.uk/~rpage/portal/
Find out what we know about a species at http://ispecies.org