[tdwg-content] Name is species concept thinking

[Richard Pyle]

Well, for starters, zoobank is not in the business of dealing with taxon
concepts -- so I wouldn't use that domain name in the example.

Also, what *is* the correct pl;ace to get DwC?  Peter was using
http://code.google.com/p/darwincore/wiki/Taxon; but I've been using
http://rs.tdwg.org/dwc/index.htm.  Now I'm thoroughly confused....

Rich 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kevin Richards [mailto:RichardsK at landcareresearch.co.nz] 
> Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2010 11:22 AM
> To: Richard Pyle; 'Peter DeVries'
> Cc: tdwg-content at lists.tdwg.org; Jerry Cooper
> Subject: RE: [tdwg-content] Name is species concept thinking
> 
> I think my main point here was the fact that in most schemas 
> we (TDWG, et al) have created, we have not really provided an 
> ID field for (2).  As you said (2) is the "concept 
> definition" but there is no ID field (that I have come 
> across), for referring to it explicitly.
> 
> My thought would be to have something like:
> 
> http://zoobank.org/taxonconcept/12345-ABCDE
> 
> that returns data for the "whole" taxon concept (ie 2), not 
> just the Name + Reference
> 
> I think it is really a data/technical issue - ie the way the 
> schemas/models are defined, a Taxon Concept ID includes, and 
> only includes, a Name ID and a Reference ID.  This is based 
> on my understanding of TCS - perhaps DwC is different??
> 
> Kevin
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Pyle [mailto:deepreef at bishopmuseum.org]
> Sent: Friday, 11 June 2010 9:03 a.m.
> To: Kevin Richards; 'Peter DeVries'
> Cc: tdwg-content at lists.tdwg.org; Jerry Cooper
> Subject: RE: [tdwg-content] Name is species concept thinking
> 
> > This is something that has been slightly confused over the 
> years, ie 
> > there
> seems to be 2 ways of defining a "taxon concept":
> > 1. A Taxon Name (nomenclatural data) + Literature Reference 
> - ie Name 
> > X as
> defined in article Y
> > 2. As you have said a grouping of data that define a taxon concept 
> > (Name +
> Reference + Synonyms + Type Specimen + Protologue, .)
> 
> I don't think of these as two different ways of defining a 
> concept.  I see
> #1 as a way of *pointing to* a taxon concept definition, and 
> #2 as the concept definition itself.  Basically, #1 (usage 
> instance) is effectively a container or an identifier for the 
> taxon concept definition.
> 
> However, there is somewhat of a dichotmy in the way that 
> taxon concepts are defined - one is by included members 
> (i.e., specimens, presumably including at least one 
> name-bearing type specimen, from which a name-label is 
> derived), the other is by properties (i.e. characters -- 
> morphologic, genetic, or otherwise).  In practice, most 
> concept definitions include both.
> But I think the "definition" of the concept (i.e., the circumscription
> boundaries) is the same for both -- it's just that those 
> boundaries can be articulated in different ways (i.e., by 
> examplar members, and by purported properties).
> 
> > 1 has been covered quite well with the various schemas we 
> have come up 
> > with over the years, but I think these schemas have failed 
> to capture
> > 2 very well (the data fields are there, but the encompassing ID is 
> > not),
> ie
> 
> Agreed -- sort of.  I think the schemas are there, but have 
> not been organized appropriately (yet).  See below.
> 
> 
> > TaxonName ID = N1, FullName = "Aus bus"
> > Reference ID = R1, Citation = "Richards, how to define a 
> taxon concept"
> > TaxonConcept ID = C1, NameID = N1, ReferenceID = R1 BUT, the taxon 
> > concept C1 does not encompass all related data that defines
> that concept (synonyms etc)
> 
> No, but it could, through a network of linkages, as I tried 
> to describe in one of my recent posts.
> 
> > To do that we need more Concept Ids and relationships between these
> concepts, eg
> 
> Exactly!  And we need a schema-based process to capture the 
> relevant information (diagnoses, etc.), anchored to the 
> Concept Ids.  At a basic level, Plazi/TaxonX does this.  
> However, it usually only goes as far as the text-blob.  To 
> parse the text blob, we need to either look towards SDD (for 
> character-based concept definition stuff) or DwC/Occurrence 
> (for specimen-based concept definition stuff).
> 
> > ConceptRelationship ID=CR1 ConceptFromID=C2, ConceptToID =C1,
> RelationshipType='has preferred name'
> 
> Yes, I agree we need this as well!  But again, I see this as 
> a way of networking pointers to taxon concept defintions, not 
> describing the definitions themselves.
> 
> Man, these conversations really hurt my brain.... :-)
> 
> Aloha,
> Rich
> 
> 
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