[tdwg-content] Name is species concept thinking

Richard Pyle deepreef at bishopmuseum.org
Thu Jun 10 23:45:11 CEST 2010


Sorry - I meant to post this URL:
http://rs.tdwg.org/dwc/terms/

Rich 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tdwg-content-bounces at lists.tdwg.org 
> [mailto:tdwg-content-bounces at lists.tdwg.org] On Behalf Of Richard Pyle
> Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2010 11:36 AM
> To: 'Kevin Richards'; 'Peter DeVries'
> Cc: tdwg-content at lists.tdwg.org; 'Jerry Cooper'
> Subject: Re: [tdwg-content] Name is species concept thinking
> 
> 
> Well, for starters, zoobank is not in the business of dealing 
> with taxon concepts -- so I wouldn't use that domain name in 
> the example.
> 
> Also, what *is* the correct pl;ace to get DwC?  Peter was 
> using http://code.google.com/p/darwincore/wiki/Taxon; but 
> I've been using http://rs.tdwg.org/dwc/index.htm.  Now I'm 
> thoroughly confused....
> 
> Rich 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Kevin Richards [mailto:RichardsK at landcareresearch.co.nz]
> > Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2010 11:22 AM
> > To: Richard Pyle; 'Peter DeVries'
> > Cc: tdwg-content at lists.tdwg.org; Jerry Cooper
> > Subject: RE: [tdwg-content] Name is species concept thinking
> > 
> > I think my main point here was the fact that in most 
> schemas we (TDWG, 
> > et al) have created, we have not really provided an ID 
> field for (2).  
> > As you said (2) is the "concept definition" but there is no 
> ID field 
> > (that I have come across), for referring to it explicitly.
> > 
> > My thought would be to have something like:
> > 
> > http://zoobank.org/taxonconcept/12345-ABCDE
> > 
> > that returns data for the "whole" taxon concept (ie 2), not 
> just the 
> > Name + Reference
> > 
> > I think it is really a data/technical issue - ie the way the 
> > schemas/models are defined, a Taxon Concept ID includes, and only 
> > includes, a Name ID and a Reference ID.  This is based on my 
> > understanding of TCS - perhaps DwC is different??
> > 
> > Kevin
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Richard Pyle [mailto:deepreef at bishopmuseum.org]
> > Sent: Friday, 11 June 2010 9:03 a.m.
> > To: Kevin Richards; 'Peter DeVries'
> > Cc: tdwg-content at lists.tdwg.org; Jerry Cooper
> > Subject: RE: [tdwg-content] Name is species concept thinking
> > 
> > > This is something that has been slightly confused over the
> > years, ie
> > > there
> > seems to be 2 ways of defining a "taxon concept":
> > > 1. A Taxon Name (nomenclatural data) + Literature Reference
> > - ie Name
> > > X as
> > defined in article Y
> > > 2. As you have said a grouping of data that define a 
> taxon concept 
> > > (Name +
> > Reference + Synonyms + Type Specimen + Protologue, .)
> > 
> > I don't think of these as two different ways of defining a 
> concept.  I 
> > see
> > #1 as a way of *pointing to* a taxon concept definition, and
> > #2 as the concept definition itself.  Basically, #1 (usage
> > instance) is effectively a container or an identifier for the taxon 
> > concept definition.
> > 
> > However, there is somewhat of a dichotmy in the way that taxon 
> > concepts are defined - one is by included members (i.e., specimens, 
> > presumably including at least one name-bearing type specimen, from 
> > which a name-label is derived), the other is by properties (i.e. 
> > characters -- morphologic, genetic, or otherwise).  In 
> practice, most 
> > concept definitions include both.
> > But I think the "definition" of the concept (i.e., the 
> circumscription
> > boundaries) is the same for both -- it's just that those boundaries 
> > can be articulated in different ways (i.e., by examplar 
> members, and 
> > by purported properties).
> > 
> > > 1 has been covered quite well with the various schemas we
> > have come up
> > > with over the years, but I think these schemas have failed
> > to capture
> > > 2 very well (the data fields are there, but the 
> encompassing ID is 
> > > not),
> > ie
> > 
> > Agreed -- sort of.  I think the schemas are there, but have 
> not been 
> > organized appropriately (yet).  See below.
> > 
> > 
> > > TaxonName ID = N1, FullName = "Aus bus"
> > > Reference ID = R1, Citation = "Richards, how to define a
> > taxon concept"
> > > TaxonConcept ID = C1, NameID = N1, ReferenceID = R1 BUT, 
> the taxon 
> > > concept C1 does not encompass all related data that defines
> > that concept (synonyms etc)
> > 
> > No, but it could, through a network of linkages, as I tried to 
> > describe in one of my recent posts.
> > 
> > > To do that we need more Concept Ids and relationships 
> between these
> > concepts, eg
> > 
> > Exactly!  And we need a schema-based process to capture the 
> relevant 
> > information (diagnoses, etc.), anchored to the Concept Ids.  At a 
> > basic level, Plazi/TaxonX does this.
> > However, it usually only goes as far as the text-blob.  To 
> parse the 
> > text blob, we need to either look towards SDD (for character-based 
> > concept definition stuff) or DwC/Occurrence (for specimen-based 
> > concept definition stuff).
> > 
> > > ConceptRelationship ID=CR1 ConceptFromID=C2, ConceptToID =C1,
> > RelationshipType='has preferred name'
> > 
> > Yes, I agree we need this as well!  But again, I see this 
> as a way of 
> > networking pointers to taxon concept defintions, not describing the 
> > definitions themselves.
> > 
> > Man, these conversations really hurt my brain.... :-)
> > 
> > Aloha,
> > Rich
> > 
> > 
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