Dear Donald,
I agree things need to be built, and on that level having LSIDs would be a major improvement on where we are now (i.e., virtually nothing has a GUID, excepting taxonomic names and a fraction of the literature).
The reality is that whatever we do, there will be a mixed environment of LSIDs, Handles, DOIs, HTTP URIs, etc., and rather messy signals from various groups (internal and external) about what approach is best.
I don't want discussion to impede progress on getting things done, so I'll keep schtum ... wish there was a smiley for suppression of intense fidgeting.
Regards
Rod
On 6 Jun 2007, at 14:46, Donald Hobern wrote:
Rod,
I know we disagree on this one, and I certainly don't want to force the issue against everyone else's better judgment but I think the critical issue is that we need to get moving with trying something seriously and for real. Switching technology later should not be too painful once we get the basic principles right (and the basic principles are the same quite independent of technology).
Some quick points.
- In answer to your latest question, the (non-technical, more social)
issues I mentioned in my previous message are the key reasons I would give for choosing something other than HTTP URIs. We are dealing with a wider community than just IT professionals and need to make a clear separation between assigning an identifier and putting up a web page. 2. LSIDs occupy a space (in my thinking) somewhere between the open, easy, hard-to-control world of HTTP URIs, and the potentially over-centralised administratively heavy world of Handles and DOIs. 3. If we go with LSIDs and subsequently decide we should just use HTTP URIs, we can do so immediately and easily using a proxy like the one TDWG has set up. 4. If we go with HTTP URIs and subsequently decide we should use something like LSIDs, it is likely to be significantly harder to clean up the mess.
Right now we are in a position where a good number of projects has converged on giving LSIDs a serious try. I honestly believe we should build on this and start learning how to use GUIDs in the real world. We can all debate options forever (and go around in circles: "LSIDs are better than URIs because..." - "Handles are better than LSIDs because..." - "URIs are better than Handles because..."), but we must get down to providing some working solutions.
Thanks as ever,
Donald
Donald Hobern (dhobern@gbif.org) Deputy Director for Informatics Global Biodiversity Information Facility Secretariat Universitetsparken 15, DK-2100 Copenhagen, Denmark Tel: +45-35321483 Mobile: +45-28751483 Fax: +45-35321480
On Jun 6, 2007, at 3:22 PM, Roderic Page wrote:
This all begs the question, is there anything LSIDs give us that HTTP URIs don't?
If we go to all this trouble to make LSIDs behave as if they were HTTP URIs, isn't this tell us something...?
Regards
Rod
On 6 Jun 2007, at 14:13, Ricardo Pereira wrote:
Roderic Page wrote:
Ricardo,
I think your arguments pretty much apply to LSIDs as well. By themselves, they don't play ball with the WWW or the Semantic Web.
For LSIDs we need a proxy that understands SOAP, can talk to the DNS, read WSDL files, and then do an HTTP look-up. You only get LSIDs to play ball by using a proxy that plays ball.
I agree. That's why we are putting forward the LSID HTTP proxy recommendations (http://wiki.tdwg.org/twiki/bin/view/GUID/ LsidHttpProxyUsageRecommendation). And there will be at least one LSID proxy (that at http://lsid.tdwg.org/) that will play ball pretty soon. That proxy all that you said, just doesn't perform the content-negotiation bit yet. But I'm currently working on that.
In principle we can do the same sort of thing for Handles (there is code for a proxy servlet at http://www.handle.net/proxy_servlet.html).
Only if handle types fully matched the standard WWW content types. They could match if we defined handle types for our own community, but they won't ever match with the types defined by other communities like DOI and others using Handles.
On the other hand, LSID spec allows us to implement standard content negotiation seamlessly because the semantics of the argument *accepted_formats* in the LSID getMetadata call is appropriate for that purpose.
I'm not necessarily defending Handles, but I think our choice needs to be well-informed. I still don't think the case for LSIDs has really been made (or, at least, some of the arguments advanced in favour of LSIDs apply equally well, if not better, to other technologies).
I agree with you on this. The case for LSIDs wasn't strong enough because the original proposal doesn't integrate well with HTTP. That is exactly why we are putting forward the LSID HTTP proxy proposal. It was the missing point in the LSID case.
In any case, I suppose we will talk more about this in the near future.
Cheers,
Ricardo _______________________________________________ tdwg-guid mailing list tdwg-guid@lists.tdwg.org http://lists.tdwg.org/mailman/listinfo/tdwg-guid
Professor Roderic D. M. Page Editor, Systematic Biology DEEB, IBLS Graham Kerr Building University of Glasgow Glasgow G12 8QP United Kingdom
Phone: +44 141 330 4778 Fax: +44 141 330 2792 email: r.page@bio.gla.ac.uk web: http://taxonomy.zoology.gla.ac.uk/rod/rod.html iChat: aim://rodpage1962 reprints: http://taxonomy.zoology.gla.ac.uk/rod/pubs.html
Subscribe to Systematic Biology through the Society of Systematic Biologists Website: http://systematicbiology.org Search for taxon names: http://darwin.zoology.gla.ac.uk/~rpage/portal/ Find out what we know about a species: http://ispecies.org Rod's rants on phyloinformatics: http://iphylo.blogspot.com Rod's rants on ants: http://semant.blogspot.com
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------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------- Professor Roderic D. M. Page Editor, Systematic Biology DEEB, IBLS Graham Kerr Building University of Glasgow Glasgow G12 8QP United Kingdom
Phone: +44 141 330 4778 Fax: +44 141 330 2792 email: r.page@bio.gla.ac.uk web: http://taxonomy.zoology.gla.ac.uk/rod/rod.html iChat: aim://rodpage1962 reprints: http://taxonomy.zoology.gla.ac.uk/rod/pubs.html
Subscribe to Systematic Biology through the Society of Systematic Biologists Website: http://systematicbiology.org Search for taxon names: http://darwin.zoology.gla.ac.uk/~rpage/portal/ Find out what we know about a species: http://ispecies.org Rod's rants on phyloinformatics: http://iphylo.blogspot.com Rod's rants on ants: http://semant.blogspot.com