Perhaps the question is whether LSIDs are a hurdle to adoption of the use of GUIDs or an aid to it.
DOIs are not just a technology they are a business model plus a technology (they use HANDLE for the technology). It is worth the client overcoming technical difficulties in their use because of the value added by the publisher paying for the associated infrastructure. I would argue that DOIs/HANDLE are, in fact, a complete pain because they don't integrate well with semantic web technologies but that they are carried along purely by the business model.
In advocating the use of LSIDs we are advocating the pain without the benefits. Just like DOIs they are awkward and non-standard to set up. They need to be constantly explained. They don't work in semantic web technologies. They don't even integrate with XML (could you host an XML Schema on an LSID?). All this would be OK if they had an associated business model - but they don't.
My personal belief is that we should either put together a business model (with the financial backing of big projects and within the next few months) where some core services are provided by a third party or we should drop LSIDs altogether. Alas I fear the big projects are more interested in data volume and pretty pictures than doing good science and providing basic services (I am being contentious for emphasis so don't take it personally).
From the technical perspective this:
urn:lsid:zoobank.org:act:8BDC0735-FEA4-4298-83FA-D04F67C3FBEC
is far harder than this:
http://purl.zoobank.org/8BDC0735-FEA4-4298-83FA-D04F67C3FBEC
so we need a good business case for doing the former. What is it?
All the best,
Roger
On 23 Mar 2009, at 01:58, Kevin Richards wrote:
As convener of the GUID subgroup of TDWG TAG, I thought I should add some comments.
The debate over LSIDs, their suitability, technical issues, etc, has been going on for some years now in the TDWG community (and also within a few other communities - especially the HCLS Health Care and Life Science semantic web group). Most issues have been raised and dealt with, and as with most technologies, there is no perfect solution for a GUID technology. To review these discussions see the TDWG pages at http://wiki.tdwg.org/GUID/ and http://www.tdwg.org/activities/guid/documents/ . Documents that cover an introduction to GUIDs/LSIDs, applicability statements, and technical issues can be found here.
I feel we are getting to a stage with LSIDs that a lot of people in this community have had some sort of dealing with the technology (whether it is setting up an LSID resolver, or using them/resolving them as through client software) and we therefore have a good range of experiences, knowledge and conclusions about the use of LSIDs. As part of the TDWG meeting in Montpellier this year, we hope to hold a session for "LSIDs in Practice" which should give us a good indication of any LSIDs issues, and how they have been dealt with in practice.
Also, there are several activities going on that should aid with the adoption of LSIDs, such as development of software tools and services, and as we speak the LSID web site is being transferred to a TDWG server to be hosted there (it has been a bit of a technical hurdle for some of us to get this web site moved, so you may need to bear with us for a little while).
Generally the technical issues of LSIDs are relatively minor. The more obvious issues (such as persistence - ie that an LSID will be resolvable indefinitely, and community support and technological aids will always be available), tend to be community/social issues. What really makes the success of any initiative is the community support and drive behind the initiative, and the same is true with whatever technologies we adopt in the TDWG community. The important thing therefore is that we start using the GUIDs, linking them up with other GUIDs/data, distributing them, promoting "authoritative" GUIDs, and then I really believe any remaining issues will be easily overcome.
Thanks Kevin
-----Original Message----- From: tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org [mailto:tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org ] On Behalf Of Beach, James H Sent: Friday, 20 March 2009 11:32 a.m. To: Garry.Jolley-Rogers@csiro.au; hlapp@duke.edu; tdwg-tag@lists.tdwg.org Subject: Re: [tdwg-tag] SourceForge LSID project websites broken - role for TDWG?
We're about to release a new version of Specify, and we are looking to the broader community for some LSID architecture leadership. We could use some interdisciplinary research use cases involving integration and resolution on specimen IDs, and implementation best practice type docs for guidance. So there is interest here. Is there still the underlying community angst about LSIDs or DOIs?
James H. Beach Biodiversity Institute University of Kansas 1345 Jayhawk Boulevard Lawrence, KS 66045, USA T 785 864-4645, F 785 864-5335
No engagement = No commitment.
-----Original Message----- From: tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org [mailto:tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org ] On Behalf Of Garry.Jolley-Rogers@csiro.au Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 5:15 PM To: hlapp@duke.edu; tdwg-tag@lists.tdwg.org Subject: Re: [tdwg-tag] SourceForge LSID project websites broken - role for TDWG?
Hi Hilmar, Struggling with exactly these issues as I implement LSID's here.
It is a concern (especially given the underlying principles of permanence embodied in LSIDS) that the LSID project itself lacks resilience. Code can still be obtained tho' the documentation I can find is out of date and dependencies may be too. I'll know very soon - by the end of today. Like many things out there.. It seems to be withering now that the initial enthusiasm has died. While the collections community may think in centuries, permanence in LSIDS seems to mean a few years. Perhaps my google-fu has failed me.. If so please tell me.
My questions.... Is there sufficient interest and community involvement to keep it alive .... Even it is no more than an update documentation & co. Perhaps it should be brought into the TDWG fold? Any comments? Happy to contribute what I can.
GarryJR
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Garry.Jolley-Rogers@csiro.au Biodiversity Informatics, Taxonomy Research & Information Network Centre for Plant Biodiversity Research, CSIRO Plant Industry, GPO Box 1600, Canberra ACT 2601 AUSTRALIA w:(02) 62465501 http://www.cpbr.gov.au/cpbr/staff/jolley-rogers-staff.html .·'¯`·.¸ ><((((o> .·'¯`·.¸¸.·'¯`·.¸ .·'¯`·.¸¸.·'¯`·.¸ >=}}}}}}/o> > <((((o> ><((((o> -----Original Message----- From: tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org [mailto:tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org ] On Behalf Of Hilmar Lapp Sent: Friday, 20 March 2009 5:07 AM To: Technical Architecture Group mailing list Subject: [tdwg-tag] SourceForge LSID project websites broken The websites for the two LSID projects on SourceForge are broken: http://lsids.sourceforge.net/ http://lsid.sourceforge.net/ I believe the latter project is defunct (can someone confirm this?) but the first should be alive, right (and this URL is in fact linked to on the TDWG website). Does anyone know what's going on? -hilmar -- =========================================================== : Hilmar Lapp -:- Durham, NC -:- hlapp at duke dot edu : =========================================================== _______________________________________________ tdwg-tag mailing list tdwg-tag@lists.tdwg.org http://lists.tdwg.org/mailman/listinfo/tdwg-tag _______________________________________________ tdwg-tag mailing list tdwg-tag@lists.tdwg.org http://lists.tdwg.org/mailman/listinfo/tdwg-tag _______________________________________________ tdwg-tag mailing list tdwg-tag@lists.tdwg.org http://lists.tdwg.org/mailman/listinfo/tdwg-tag Please consider the environment before printing this email Warning: This electronic message together with any attachments is confidential. If you receive it in error: (i) you must not read, use, disclose, copy or retain it; (ii) please contact the sender immediately by reply email and then delete the emails. The views expressed in this email may not be those of Landcare Research New Zealand Limited. http://www.landcareresearch.co.nz _______________________________________________ tdwg-tag mailing list tdwg-tag@lists.tdwg.org http://lists.tdwg.org/mailman/listinfo/tdwg-tag