I only went (and should be able to go) by the tracker. If consensus *has* been established, then you should update the tracker item such that that fact becomes clear, and who signed on to that consensus. As is, there are questions raised, and one answer provided. It's not clear to me as an observer whether the answer settles the issue (it doesn't look to me like it does), or whether more discussion is needed.

  -hilmar


On Fri, Jul 25, 2014 at 12:42 PM, Markus Döring <mdoering@gbif.org> wrote:
Hi Hilmar,

I was under the impression we had reached a consensus some time ago. Peter Desmet summarized 2 options in 2012 [1] after which we agreed on creating two new terms [2] with Peter, GBIF and CoL as immediate "users". Since then I am not aware of any alternative proposals or doubting discussions - until that very recent short comment from Chuck.

Not sure what to say really. I find it hard to know when a consensus is reached and how to react when there is no reaction. 
But seems this indeed is nothing for Cyndi yet but more for DwC enthusiasts.

Markus


On 25 Jul 2014, at 17:16, Hilmar Lapp <hlapp@nescent.org> wrote:

Markus - am I right that this issue isn't at an actionable state yet? From the tracker it appears that discussion is still ongoing and consensus has not been achieved yet.

I don't mean to be a PITA but I'm with Steve in that it's really key here to keep this thread focused solely on those issues that have already been settled and are merely awaiting being inducted into the official standard. Like Steve, I see great danger in any attempt to bundle these with other issues and requests that aren't clearly at this same point.

  -hilmar  


On Fri, Jul 25, 2014 at 10:41 AM, Markus Döring <mdoering@gbif.org> wrote:
Thanks for pushing this Steve!

There is one further DwC issue that dates back nearly 2 years now that I am really keen on getting settled which is a newly proposed term dwc:genericName.
The term is being used by GBIF and Catalog of Life in live systems since last year anticipating it would get ratified rather soon after long discussions we had:

for background discussion see also:


Markus




On 25 Jul 2014, at 15:22, Steve Baskauf <steve.baskauf@vanderbilt.edu> wrote:

Cyndi,
OK, here is a list of items related to Darwin Core:

Issue 1. The draft Darwin Core RDF Guide was completed recommended for adoption by the RDF/OWL Task Group in July 2013 after a process described on the proposal cover page [1].  There was no precedent for making an addition of this sort, so in October 2013 John Wieczorek requested guidance from the executive (see his email just forwarded to the list).

Action needed: Guidance from the executive about how to handle this kind of change.  Possible revision of section 2.3.1.5 of the RDF Guide proposal depending on the outcome of issue 2.

Issue 2. At the documenting Darwin Core meeting at TDWG meeting in November 2013, there was discussion and apparent consensus for making a number of changes to the definitions of Darwin Core classes.  The details can be read at [2].  An ad hoc group of interested parties held online meetings in December to hammer out definitions.  In January 2014, those definitions were entered in the Darwin Core issue tracker [3] as issues 205-226.   

Action needed: Initiation of 30 day comment period.  It is not clear who should do this - probably either John Wieczorek (who has done this in the past) or maybe Greg Whitbread if the TAG has resumed functioning (but that is really a different issue that should not be allowed to derail these issues).  Note: If these proposed changes are adopted (and they probably should be as a block because they are really a package), then section 2.3.1.5 of the RDF Guide [4] will need to be rewritten. 

There are other issues, but putting them in this email would make a complicated situation worse.

Steve

[1] https://code.google.com/p/tdwg-rdf/wiki/DwcRdf section entitled "What process has/will occur in the ratification of this proposal?"
[2] https://code.google.com/p/darwincore/issues/detail?id=204
[3] https://code.google.com/p/darwincore/issues/list
[4] https://code.google.com/p/tdwg-rdf/wiki/DwcRdfGuideProposal#2.3.1.5_Classes_to_be_used_for_type_declarations_of_resources_de

Cynthia Parr wrote:
Hi all,

I will be happy to take up the VoMaG report and the status of the Technical Architecture Group in the TDWG Executive. I know that a lot of work went into the report, and I definitely appreciate the huge volunteer effort. It is true that the Kenya/Sweden meetings have consumed much of the Exec's energy of late, and we are all doing our best to juggle our many responsibilities.

Otherwise, if there are more specific requests to the Executive from the Darwin Core review manager (or anybody) on the issues that Joel is calling attention to (204-226), I'm not aware of them.  Not sure if Steve's remarks about process are directed at John (as review manager) or at the TDWG Executive (or possibly both) but I'm happy to help as I can. Just need a bit more clarity (and brevity -- communication is hard enough given how distributed and multi-national we are!)

Definitely I would be interested in participating in an RCN proposal to help address the challenge of running our all-volunteer organization.  Arguably, as current TDWG chair I should lead the proposal. I can't commit to this officially just at the moment but as plans coalesce we can see if this is something I'll be able to do. I've already had some conversations with other members since Florence about the idea of finding funds to support coordination, and I would be happy to organize a small group towards concrete action.  Please contact me offline if you haven't already expressed interest in being part of this group.

Cyndy
TDWG Chair


On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 5:03 PM, Chuck Miller <Chuck.Miller@mobot.org> wrote:

Steve,

I guess I needed to be more specific.  I meant all of the administration and leadership of TDWG are volunteer.  And those volunteers must  put in a lot of volunteer time on everything required for TDWG administration, including the ratification process.  This year I know that dealing with the annual conference issues and changing venues in the middle of the year has been very time demanding on those volunteers.  Having been in the situation, I have a lot of empathy for those on the Executive Committee who must deal with all of TDWG’s issues while holding down a full time, paid job.

 

Chuck   

 

From: tdwg-content-bounces@lists.tdwg.org [mailto:tdwg-content-bounces@lists.tdwg.org] On Behalf Of Steven J. Baskauf
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 3:18 PM
To: Chuck Miller; tdwg-content@lists.tdwg.org
Subject: Re: [tdwg-content] [External] RE: Proposed changes to Darwin Core

 

I totally understand the challenge to getting things done in the context of TDWG being a volunteer organization.  But that isn't the problem with the DwC class proposals and the RDF Guide.  In both of those cases, unpaid volunteers DID put in the many hours of work necessary to do the writing and achieve consensus within a working group.  The problem is that those proposals have been held up by many months because nobody has made administrative decisions necessary to move them forward.  We don't need a grant or more volunteer hours to fix that problem.

The case of fixing the more systematic problems with vocabulary management is a little more complicated.  But again a group of volunteers put in many hours to assemble recommendations of the VoMaG report.  Somebody needs to act on those recommendations - accept, reject, appoint a task group to work on a draft standard or whatever.  Here as well, the problem is lack of action, not lack of volunteer time. 

Steve

On 7/23/2014 10:08 AM, Chuck Miller wrote:

I want to make a point of clarification.  There is a TDWG Technical Architecture Group (TAG) convened by Greg Whitbread and there were a couple of TAG meetings in Florence, but sustaining the needed level of activity between annual meetings has always been an issue.  However, a significant point to note is the TAG is not involved in the standards ratification process.    

 

The TDWG standards ratification process is described at http://www.tdwg.org/about-tdwg/process/.  The main actor in the process is a Review Manager, appointed by the Executive Committee, who shepherds a proposed standard through expert and public reviews.  The final decision to ratify is made by the Executive Committee after the reviews are completed and reported by the Review Manager.

 

The process for making revisions to a TDWG standard is less clear and needs more documentation. There was some opinion early on that standards should only be replaced, not revised.  In practice, there have been a few revisions to DwC approved by the Executive Committee in recent years and as I recall the proposals for those revisions were submitted by John Wieiczorek, the DwC Task Group convenor, directly to the Executive Committee after a period of public comment.  In John’s proposals the DwC issue tracker was used to reference the proposed revisions along with some summarization  from John and the revisions were discussed/decided at Exec meetings at the annual conferences. 

 

The volunteer basis of TDWG presents challenges for maintaining a high tempo.  Something like a funded RCN would help a lot to enable some focused attention, at least for a while.

 

Chuck

 

From: tdwg-content-bounces@lists.tdwg.org [mailto:tdwg-content-bounces@lists.tdwg.org] On Behalf Of Robert Guralnick
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 7:52 AM
To: Steve Baskauf
Cc: TDWG Content Mailing List
Subject: Re: [tdwg-content] Proposed changes to Darwin Core

 
 

  Hi everyone --- Excuse the brevity, but I am headed out for an annual vacation and will attempt (and likely fail) to ignore email for the next week.  However, the topics raised by Joel and Steve are important and I do have some quick comments, separated by topic (one on term issues and one on governance).


1)  To my surprise, I am no longer in favor of a DwC:Organism addition and attendant other changes (if I ever was in favor).  I think this reflects a shift in my thinking -- I have come to see the Darwin Core as really about biocollections and material samples or observations, making the specification of "individuals" or "organisms" less a compelling need.  I feel that "individual/organism" is actually fraught with a fair amount of peril, when knowledge modeled.  What we really deal with are samples --- the individual/organism is there ephemerally within the context of the collecting event, and sometimes not even then (road kill).  I just can't see why we need it at this point.

 

2)  Steve has a very good point about TAG and decision making.  The larger question is "what to do".  Here is a thought.  A few of us have agreed to weekly (virtual) meetings about BCO and DwC integration (John Wieczorek, John Deck, Ramona Walls, myself and a couple others) --- we haven't always come through but setting aside the time is important and useful.  Why not reconstitute the TAG or at least a subgroup and bring BCO/DwC kinds of activities together more firmly.  We could open those meetings more broadly to deal with continuing issues with DwC, while also keeping our eye on BCO and its growth.  I also see a real opportunity here (and I am not the only one) for funding this kind of work, in the context of NSF's RCN (Research Coordination Network) framework.  We clearly have the need and such funding could allow us the chance to meet more regularly than once a year.  If there is interest, I am willing to consider the work needed to make this happen. 

 

Best, Rob

 
 
 

On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 6:10 AM, Steve Baskauf <steve.baskauf@vanderbilt.edu> wrote:

Thanks for bringing these issues up, Joel.

To clarify the situation, the changes that have been proposed should be
handled in accordance with the Darwin Core term change policy [1].  If
I'm interpreting that policy correctly, the changes would fall in
sections 3.3 or 3.4.  The proposed changes that redefine existing terms
(like dwc:Occurrence) would be "Semantic changes in Darwin Core terms"
(section 3.3) and the changes that create new terms (like
dwc:LivingSpecimen) would be "Addition of Darwin Core term declarations
to exisiting Darwin Core namespaces (section 3.4).   The exact procedure
in both sections is a bit murky because it presupposes a functioning
Technical Architecture Group (TAG) that judges the merit of the proposal
and (at least in the case of 3.4) calls for a request for comments
(RFC).  Historically, there has not been a functioning TAG, so John
Wiecorek (shepherd of Darwin Core) has traditionally made the call for a
30 day RFC on tdwg-content.  He hasn't done that yet, to my knowledge.
I don't think that the Term Change Policy actually requires action by
the Executive, but I think that in actuality it has made the final call
since there hasn't been any TAG to do the job.

I have to say that I'm puzzled by the lack of motion on this proposal.
The usual reason for failure of proposed changes is "lack of
consensus".  However, in this case, there seemed (to me) to be
widespread support for these changes at the Documenting Darwin Core
workshop at the TDWG meeting in November.  In the discussions held in
December by the ad hoc group (whose purpose was to hammer out the actual
proposed definitions), there was a shocking degree of consensus about
everything except for the name of the one class (organism/individual).
So I don't understand why the proposed changes haven't gone to public
comment months ago.

The DwC RDF Guide [3] (which Joel mentioned) has similarly languished
for a year now, having already undergone numerous revisions and having
been endorsed by the task group that created it.  The only reason I
haven't pushed harder on moving it forward is that it would need to be
revised if the proposed DwC class changes were adopted.  So lack of
progress on the proposed term changes is holding up progress on that as
well.

The real problem here is that the TDWG standards maintenance process is
broken.  We need a clear and usable system that covers all of the TDWG
technical standard vocabularies (i.e. DwC, Audubon Core, and any future
ones).  This was discussed in detail in several sessions at the last
TDWG meeting with some concrete proposals put on the table [4]. It was
my impression that this issue was very high on the agenda of the
Executive.  However, we are now nine month past that meeting and I
haven't seen any visible signs that there has been any progress on this
front.  Is TDWG actually a standards organization or not?  I'm not sure
anymore.

Steve

[1] http://rs.tdwg.org/dwc/terms/namespace/index.htm#classesofchanges
[2] doesn't currently exist in the dwc: namespace; it's in the dwctype:
namespace, which we have proposed to deprecate
[3] https://code.google.com/p/tdwg-rdf/wiki/DwcRdf
[4] http://www.gbif.org/resources/2246 plus several in-person meetings
at TDWG


joel sachs wrote:
> Hi John,
>
> On Tue, 22 Jul 2014, John Wieczorek wrote:
>
>> Hi Joel,
>> Is this meant to call everyone's attention to the issues?
>
> Yes, that is the purpose of this email. My understaning of the process
> for changing the standard is that proposals are entered into the Issue
> Tracker, followed by a 30 day period of public comment, followed by
> the editor bringing the proposals to the executive for ratification.
> So, technically, tdwg-content does not need to be notified prior to
> ratification. (Is that correct?) Regardless, as much as I want to see
> our proposals ratified, I don't want it to happen under the radar, and
> so thought it made sense to inform the list.
>
>> To elicit further
>> commentary? Or to make a specific proposal for action?
>>
>> I suspect it is to put forward your positions on issue 205. If that is
>> correct, I propose bringing those positions here for discussion.
>
> I don't mind airing my positions on Issue 205, but would prefer not to
> lead off with that. My questions and suggestions regarding the
> proposed dwc:Organism class are not as important as our proposal to
> deprecate the dwctype namespace, and to remove the phrase "The
> category of information pertaining to" from the definitions of the dwc
> classes.
>
> Cheers,
> Joel.
>
>
>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 5:16 PM, joel sachs <jsachs@csee.umbc.edu>
>> wrote:
>>       Hi Everyone,
>>
>>       I’d like to direct everyone’s attention to issues 204 - 226 in
>>       the Darwin Core issue tracker [1]. These issues describe
>>       proposed changes to the Darwin Core standard, and were entered
>>       back in January in follow up to the Documenting Darwin Core
>>       workshop held at TDWG 2013. These proposals reflect what the
>>       organizers of that workshop believe to be the consensus that was
>>       reached during the workshop’s four sessions in Florence.
>>
>>       The background for this is that, for some time, a number of
>>       TDWGers have been working towards an applicability statement to
>>       provide guidance on expressing Darwin Core data using RDF. In
>>       the course of this work, it became apparent that the semantics
>>       of Darwin Core itself needed a slight re-think, in order to be
>>       usable on the semantic web. The goal was to be
>>       backward-compatible, i.e. to introduce and re-define terms in a
>>       way that does not affect the meaning of existing Darwin Core
>>       spreadsheet data, but which provides the semantic grounding
>>       necessary for meaningful RDF. I think this goal has, for the
>>       most part, been realized. If you have examples to the contrary,
>>       please share them.
>>
>>       Steve Baskauf provides a good overview of the proposals in Issue
>>       204. Of all of them, only Issue 205 (the introduction of a class
>>       to represent the taxonomically homogenous units that are
>>       described in Darwin Core occurrence data) was contentious,
>>       primarily because we disagreed on a good name for the class.
>>       (“We” refers to the ad-hoc group that worked on translating the
>>       notes from the workshop into concrete proposals - John
>>       Wieczorek, James Macklin, Markus Döring, Rich Pyle, Tim
>>       Robertson, Bob Morris, Hilmar Lapp, Steve Baskauf, Gregor
>>       Hagedorn, and myself.) I’ve mentioned my own concerns as a
>>       comment on that issue.
>>
>>       There is one proposal that had the support of the group, but
>>       that is not yet entered into the Issue Tracker - the deprecation
>>       of dwc:basisOfRecord. The motivation for this proposal is that
>>       dwc:basisOfRecord is widely misunderstood and inconsistently
>>       used, coupled with the fact that GBIF currently uses
>>       basisOfRecord with the semantics of the (to be proposed)
>>       dwc:hasEvidence term. However, we have held back on proposing
>>       "hasEvidence", as there remain some unresolved issues regarding
>>       how it would be used. This will likely be left as future work,
>>       perhaps to be tackled at TDWG 2014.
>>
>>       Many thanks to all who participated in the workshop, and to all
>>       who take the time to review its outcomes.
>>
>>       Joel.
>>
>>       1. https://code.google.com/p/darwincore/issues/list ["ID" ->
>>       "Sort Down" to see in order]
>>       _______________________________________________
>>       tdwg-content mailing list
>>       tdwg-content@lists.tdwg.org
>>       http://lists.tdwg.org/mailman/listinfo/tdwg-content
>>
>>
>>
>>

--
Steven J. Baskauf, Ph.D., Senior Lecturer
Vanderbilt University Dept. of Biological Sciences

postal mail address:
PMB 351634
Nashville, TN  37235-1634,  U.S.A.

delivery address:
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office: 2128 Stevenson Center
phone: (615) 343-4582,  fax: (615) 322-4942
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-- 
Steven J. Baskauf, Ph.D., Senior Lecturer
Vanderbilt University Dept. of Biological Sciences
 
postal mail address:
PMB 351634
Nashville, TN  37235-1634,  U.S.A.
 
delivery address:
2125 Stevenson Center
1161 21st Ave., S.
Nashville, TN 37235
 
office: 2128 Stevenson Center
phone: (615) 343-4582,  fax: (615) 322-4942
If you fax, please phone or email so that I will know to look for it.
http://bioimages.vanderbilt.edu
http://vanderbilt.edu/trees
 

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-- 
Steven J. Baskauf, Ph.D., Senior Lecturer
Vanderbilt University Dept. of Biological Sciences

postal mail address:
PMB 351634
Nashville, TN  37235-1634,  U.S.A.

delivery address:
2125 Stevenson Center
1161 21st Ave., S.
Nashville, TN 37235

office: 2128 Stevenson Center
phone: (615) 343-4582,  fax: (615) 322-4942
If you fax, please phone or email so that I will know to look for it.
http://bioimages.vanderbilt.edu
http://vanderbilt.edu/trees
_______________________________________________
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http://lists.tdwg.org/mailman/listinfo/tdwg-content


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