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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I certainly agree; but we’ve been talking about shared identifiers for more than twenty years now, and that hasn’t gotten us anywhere either. In fact, the focus on that goal may have hampered or delayed the development of the “matrix”.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I used to be a HUGE proponent of shared identifiers, back in the day. It seemed like the obvious answer to data integration. But I’ve come to realize that the silos exist, and each silo has its own way of doing things that relies on their own internal identifiers, and in most cases, the silos don’t have the resources (or the motivation) to update their systems to incorporate shared identifiers. Speaking as someone who manages the natural sciences data resources for a Museum, I CERTAINLY wouldn’t want to make that sort of investment unless there were universally acknowledged identifiers for the data objects I manage (which, for most of our classes of data objects, there decidedly is not). I’d much rather leave my legacy systems in place, then build a small indexing system that cross-links my own identifiers to the ones that exist “out there” (TSNs, LSIDs, DOIs, OCLC, ISSN/ISBN, etc.). If others do the same, then I see that as a first step towards building a bridge between the silos.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>By far, the most arduous part in the process is reconciling one’s own identifiers against the identifiers of other data sources. This is particularly messy for items that are otherwise identified with “noisy text” – like taxon names, people names, place names, and literature citations (which, collectively, represent by far the bulk of the records that overlap among datasets, and hence are the identifiers we stand the most to gain from by sharing the same identifiers. This work would have to be done anyway – regardless of whether we aimed for a shared identifier approach, or a cross-mapped identifier approach. With the mapped-identifier approach, that’s almost all the work that needs to be done. With the shared identifier approach, it’s only part of the work that would need to be done – the other part is to upgrade all the applications used by all the silos to incorporate the shared identifers. And, of course, there’s the problem with actually converging on what the shared identifiers are.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>It is indeed wishful thinking that by building the infrastructure, the identifiers will coalesce. However, it is also wishful thinking that all the players will ever come to an agreement on what the “one true” identifier is for shared objects, and moreover devote the necessary resources to convert existing systems to accommodate them. I’ve come to believe that the former wishful thinking is more plausible (if only slightly) than the latter wishful thinking. Also, the latter has had more time to demonstrate its infeasibility.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Aloha,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Rich<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Roderic Page [mailto:r.page@bio.gla.ac.uk] <br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 23, 2012 11:54 AM<br><b>To:</b> TDWG TAG<br><b>Cc:</b> Kevin Richards; Richard Pyle<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [tdwg-tag] Specimen identifiers<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Dear Rich,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I guess I'd argue the reverse, in that pumping data out with unique identifiers demonstrably doesn't get us very far. We've had "globally unique", "persistent", and "actionable" identifiers for years (LSIDs, URLs, DOIs, etc.) and very little to show for it. In other words, there isn't a biodiversity informatics "matrix" to "plug in" to. Building a "cross-mapping service" is not necessarily simple, again because the individual data providers rarely use existing identifiers for things outside their domain. Hence we have text strings for literature when perfectly good identifiers exist.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The benefits of the "matrix" come from the links, and we aren't providing them. The notion this is all going to magically coalesce at some unspecified point in the future strikes me as wishful thinking. Someone is soon going to point out that the Emperor has no clothes...<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Regards<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Rod<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On 23 Feb 2012, at 21:09, Richard Pyle wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Hi All,<br><br>As I've said many times before, the "shared" bit is useful, but far less<br>important than the "globally unique", "persistent", and "actionable" bits.<br>As Kevin says, we can handle the non-shared GUIDs (as long as they meet the<br>other three criteria) by simply building a cross-mapping service; but that's<br>only useful to the extent that the identifiers are truly unique, persistent,<br>and actionable (in that order of importance).<br><br>Once we have a real infrastructure that achieves critical mass of adoption<br>for integrating the silos, then I'm sure eventually our community will<br>converge toward shared identifiers (specifically, towards the ones that are<br>most robustly persistent, and provide the best services when actioned upon),<br>and the superfluous identifiers will eventually fade into becoming<br>historical metadata (like NODC numbers in the context of ITIS).<br><br>But without an infrastructure to get people to come out of their silos and<br>"plug in" to the biodiversity informatics "matrix", it's unlikely that we'll<br>ever get to the point of collapsing multiple identical GUIDs into a single<br>shared GUID for the same object.<br><br>Aloha,<br>Rich<br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>From: <a href="mailto:tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org">tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org</a> [mailto:tdwg-tag-<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><a href="mailto:bounces@lists.tdwg.org">bounces@lists.tdwg.org</a>] On Behalf Of Kevin Richards<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 9:41 AM<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>To: Roderic Page; TDWG TAG<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Subject: Re: [tdwg-tag] Specimen identifiers<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>I agree Rod, it would be ideal to have unique, shared identifiers for<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>specimens, and as many other types of data as possible.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>The problem here is the "shared" bit. This is what most people hope for<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal>and<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>hoped would come out of all the GUID and vocabulary work that has been<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>done. But you know how hard it is to get different projects,<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal>organisations,<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>datasets to really share IDs. Pretty much impossible, so I have moved on<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>from this dream and hope to solve this more by linkages, linked data type<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>approaches instead.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Another problem is what the identifier refers to. As someone (I think<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal>Rich)<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>said in a recent post, two different people may apply the same identifier<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>to<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>slightly different things - eg to the "name" of a person, or to the<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>"person"<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>itself. This is another barrier to reuse of shared identifiers.<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>You may think that specimens should be very simple, it is just a specimen<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>that you refer to, but there can be subtle differences, for example if<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>someone has data about the accessioned physical specimen and another has<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>an image of that specimen - they could both well say that they are<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal>discussing<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>the same specimen so give these two "different" objects the same<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>identifier.<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Kevin<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>From: <a href="mailto:tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org">tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org</a> [mailto:tdwg-tag-<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><a href="mailto:bounces@lists.tdwg.org">bounces@lists.tdwg.org</a>] On Behalf Of Roderic Page<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Sent: Thursday, 23 February 2012 11:38 p.m.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>To: TDWG TAG<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Subject: [tdwg-tag] Specimen identifiers<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>I've recently written an number of posts on the implications of the lack<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal>of<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>specimen-level identifiers, which makes it very hard to link different<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>sources<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>of data together, such as GBIF and Genbank<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><a href="http://iphylo.blogspot.com/2012/02/linking-gbif-and-genbank.html">http://iphylo.blogspot.com/2012/02/linking-gbif-and-genbank.html</a> , and are<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>also a factor in creating duplicate records in GBIF<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><a href="http://iphylo.blogspot.com/2012/02/how-many-specimens-does-gbif-">http://iphylo.blogspot.com/2012/02/how-many-specimens-does-gbif-</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>really.html<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>I know this is something of a hobby horse of mine, but we can have all the<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>wonderful ontologies and vocabularies we want, if we don't have globally<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>unique, shared identifiers to glue this stuff together we are going to<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal>find<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>ourselves making yet more silos...<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Regards<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Rod<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>---------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Roderic Page<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Professor of Taxonomy<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Institute of Biodiversity, Animal Health and Comparative Medicine College<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal>of<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Medical, Veterinary and Life Sciences Graham Kerr Building University of<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Glasgow Glasgow G12 8QQ, UK<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Email: <a href="mailto:r.page@bio.gla.ac.uk">r.page@bio.gla.ac.uk</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Tel: +44 141 330 4778<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Fax: +44 141 330 2792<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>AIM: <a href="mailto:rodpage1962@aim.com">rodpage1962@aim.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Facebook: <a href="http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1112517192">http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1112517192</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Twitter: <a href="http://twitter.com/rdmpage">http://twitter.com/rdmpage</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Blog: <a 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Any personal opinions expressed in this message do not necessarily represent the views of the Bishop Museum.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>---------------------------------------------------------</span></span><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><br><span class=apple-style-span>Roderic Page</span><br><span class=apple-style-span>Professor of Taxonomy</span><br><span class=apple-style-span>Institute of Biodiversity, Animal Health and Comparative Medicine</span><br><span class=apple-style-span>College of Medical, Veterinary and Life Sciences</span><br><span class=apple-style-span>Graham Kerr Building</span><br><span class=apple-style-span>University of Glasgow</span><br><span class=apple-style-span>Glasgow G12 8QQ, UK</span><br><br><span class=apple-style-span>Email: <a href="mailto:r.page@bio.gla.ac.uk">r.page@bio.gla.ac.uk</a></span><br><span class=apple-style-span>Tel: +44 141 330 4778</span><br><span class=apple-style-span>Fax: +44 141 330 2792</span><br><span class=apple-style-span>AIM: <a href="mailto:rodpage1962@aim.com">rodpage1962@aim.com</a></span><br><span class=apple-style-span>Facebook: <a href="http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1112517192">http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1112517192</a></span><br><span class=apple-style-span>Twitter: <a href="http://twitter.com/rdmpage">http://twitter.com/rdmpage</a></span><br><span class=apple-style-span>Blog: <a href="http://iphylo.blogspot.com">http://iphylo.blogspot.com</a></span><br><span class=apple-style-span>Home page: <a href="http://taxonomy.zoology.gla.ac.uk/rod/rod.html">http://taxonomy.zoology.gla.ac.uk/rod/rod.html</a></span><br><br></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></div></body></html>