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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=156321619-15052009><FONT face=Verdana
color=#800000 size=2>OK. Because it is Friday afternoon and Bob has upped
the ante, I will pull a chair up to this game and go all-in.
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=156321619-15052009><FONT face=Verdana
color=#800000 size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=156321619-15052009><FONT face=Verdana
color=#800000 size=2>It's not the red 'Check Engine' light that drivers want
either. What people want with a car, obviously, is the ability to go from
A to B, quickly and comfortably, and WITHOUT
THINKING. It's not features people want, it's
benefits. <A
href="http://www.clickz.com/840121">http://www.clickz.com/840121</A></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=156321619-15052009><FONT face=Verdana
color=#800000 size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=156321619-15052009><FONT face=Verdana
color=#800000 size=2>The other point Bob makes about the key role of software
tools in the promulgation and realization (and payoff!) of standards (i.e.
benefits) is exactly right. TDWG has a glorious history of which I am
proud to be an ancient part, of clever intellectual conceptualizations with no
clear, short-term benefits or features for the community that feeds
it.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=156321619-15052009><FONT face=Verdana
color=#800000 size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=156321619-15052009><FONT face=Verdana
color=#800000 size=2>Candidly, that's why we feel excited about going viral with
Specify as a platform to bring standards-enabled benefits to the collections
community as</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=156321619-15052009><FONT face=Verdana
color=#800000 size=2>capabilities encoded in actual software that does
occasionally mundane but useful things</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
class=156321619-15052009><FONT face=Verdana color=#800000
size=2>.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=156321619-15052009><FONT face=Verdana
color=#800000 size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=156321619-15052009><FONT face=Verdana
color=#800000 size=2>By the way, even though Kansas is reputed to be the source
of the 1918 flu pandemic, it is only coincidence that Specify coming out of
Kansas has gone viral--as we ramp up to
H1N1. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=156321619-15052009><FONT face=Verdana
color=#800000 size=2></FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=156321619-15052009><FONT
face=Verdana color=#800000 size=2></FONT></SPAN><SPAN
class=156321619-15052009></SPAN><SPAN class=156321619-15052009></SPAN><SPAN
class=156321619-15052009><FONT face=Verdana color=#800000
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=156321619-15052009><FONT face=Verdana
color=#800000 size=2>So, here's to TDWG integrating better to labs
everywhere making software for research users. That's a winning strategy
for a TDWGian future. And let's sell benefits, not
features.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=156321619-15052009><FONT face=Verdana
color=#800000 size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#800000 size=2><SPAN class=156321619-15052009>Jim
Beach</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P align=left><FONT face=Verdana
size=2>_____________________________<BR></FONT><FONT face=Verdana color=#800000
size=2>James H. Beach<BR></FONT><SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"><FONT
face=Verdana color=#333333 size=2>Biodiversity Institute</FONT><FONT
color=#666666><BR></FONT><FONT face=Verdana color=#800000 size=2>University of
Kansas</FONT><FONT color=#666666><BR></FONT><FONT face=Verdana color=#333333
size=2>1345 Jayhawk Boulevard</FONT><FONT color=#666666><BR></FONT><FONT
face=Verdana color=#800000 size=2>Lawrence, KS 66045, USA</FONT><FONT
color=#666666><BR></FONT><FONT face=Verdana color=#333333 size=2>T 785 864-4645,
F 785 864-5335</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P align=left><FONT face=Verdana><FONT size=2><SPAN
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff">No engagement = No
commitment.</SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"><FONT
color=#666666><BR> </P></FONT></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV> </DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org
[mailto:tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Bob
Morris<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, May 15, 2009 1:27 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Chuck
Miller<BR><B>Cc:</B> Lee Belbin; tdwg-tag@lists.tdwg.org<BR><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [tdwg-tag] TDWG ontology revisited ... a
newcomer'sperspective[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>OK. I'll put the elephant back in the room. But first I'll go
Chuck one further: once the major natural history museums and herbaria are
taken out of the discussion, the biodiversity data holding community is made
up of people who don't want to hear about anything except Excel(tm)
spreadsheets, and well they shouldn't.<BR><BR>Elephant wise, there is a case
to be made that it is not standards bodies, but rather funded, mandated
organizations like GBIF whose job is development of tools and training in
their use, even when assistance of the standards-making participants is
needed in the technical implementation of the tools. GBIF was pretty
successful in that regard with their DiGIR provider, and is well on their way
to another success with the Integrated Publishing Toolkit. <BR><BR>Usually,
standards bodies are made up of people who contribute because they \are/ tool
builders and want to make sure their tools have the required level of
interoperability with whatever other tools they perceive interoperability is
in their users' interests. <BR><BR>The global automotive industry is a good
model (but so is the OpenGeospactial Consortium [note "Consortium" in their
name]. ) . With no real data, I'll wager that an insignificant
fraction of private owners of automobiles have no clue what is the appropriate
motor oil to use in their car, much less how to understand how to choose a
motor oil, or understand such things as the relation between SAE10W30
designated motor oil and something corresponding to it in an EU standard. In
fact, what most people want is simply a light to come on in their car when it
is time to take the car to someone who knows what is the appropriate thing to
do to make that light go out and keep the car safe and valuable. Using a
"change oil" indicator is an easy thing to learn. Designing cars with
useful indicator lights is not. Even selling or servicing cars is not an
easy thing to learn, and maybe those are the analogy of the community in
pain being put forth in these threads. If developing, deploying, and
maintaining biodiversity information systems were not technically demanding
enterprises, Mobot could fire its technical staff and hire a bunch of high
school students who have had a course in Java and are masters of Twitter and
Facebook. There are a lot of those for hire.<BR><BR><BR>Bob
Morris<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 12:47 PM, Chuck Miller <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:Chuck.Miller@mobot.org">Chuck.Miller@mobot.org</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Lee,<BR>As
you know, I am a proponent of the simple and the understandable,
particularly for the folks like Lynette. I am glad to see a couple of
appeals from the gallery to counterpoint the continuing pursuit of the
complex issues. The biodiversity informatics/data community like it or not
is primarily made up of those who do not spend their time expanding the
limits of web-based semantic inference. It may very well be that the
only viable solutions for some of the use cases of biodiversity can only be
reached by semantic inference. But, the barrier to entry for folks
like Lynnette (and there are many, many) is just too high and so solving
those use cases by web-based semantics is simply out of reach for them.
We must accept that.<BR><BR>We positively must enable the folks who do
not understand triples, RDF, OWL, SPARQL and the rest to still be able to
play in the global biodiversity data sandbox. We must continue to offer
methods and techniques that do not require this level of knowledge. Call it
a "light" version, or whatever you will, but I strongly believe the
community at large needs it. Unfortunately, that "community at large"
doesn't speak up on Taxacom or TDWG much. I fear it's because they can't
follow the technical threads and like Lynette are baffled and
discouraged.<BR><BR>TDWG has to continue to recognize the need to keep it
simple, at least in part. It's always an 80-20 situation I think. That
does not preclude continuing work on the deeper, triples-based approaches
for the 20%. But, we must additionally and in parallel provide
simpler, compatible approaches for the 80%. We need to listen to that
80%.<BR><FONT color=#888888><BR>Chuck<BR></FONT>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=h5><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: <A
href="mailto:tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org">tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org</A>
[mailto:<A
href="mailto:tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org">tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org</A>]
On Behalf Of Lee Belbin<BR>Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 7:38 PM<BR>To: <A
href="mailto:tdwg-tag@lists.tdwg.org">tdwg-tag@lists.tdwg.org</A><BR>Subject:
Re: [tdwg-tag] TDWG ontology revisited ... a newcomer'sperspective
[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]<BR><BR>Hi Lynette, Greg, Gregor et al.,<BR><BR>I've only
just caught up with this thread, but feel obliged to post (I sound like
Rich).<BR><BR>A few months ago (and not for the first time), I came to
exactly the same conclusion as you Lynette. There is I fear, a growing gap
between the more technical members of TDWG and those who are joining TDWG
from applications areas such as biology, taxonomy etc. As time goes on, this
gap seems more evident, and nowhere is this more apparent than with the
'TDWG ontology'.<BR><BR>The TDWG ontology is probably the most important
priority we currently have. Your comments about the use of the ontology to
help newcomers understand the domain is spot on. I'd also say that the
newcomers are in many cases, domain experts who have a lot to contribute to
the ontology, but really can't in its present form. The ontology is also
mandatory if we want to efficiently cross link all the various TDWG
activities/groups. Recent comments about Darwin Core and the TDWG ontology
is a prime example!<BR><BR>The ontology is priority-1 for TDWG, BUT (it is a
big but), we need effective tools (preferably A web based tool) that would
EASILY enable anyone (not just Protégé experts) to view (in various forms
that were suitable for the purpose), manage, build, annotate, document,
import and export bits or all of the ontology/vocabularies is helpful
formats.<BR><BR>If TDWG has these issues with developing and using an
effective ontology, plenty of others must have also! Surely?<BR><BR>I
discussed this with Donald and he agreed and said that Greg and Garry were
thinking about this as well (as Greg has suggested). I also discussed the
ontology issue with Gail Kampmeier as she has a graduate student looking for
a biodiversity informatics project - and this is a beauty. Markus Döring
also said at the Fremantle meeting that he was keen to lead work on the
ontology. I also discussed this same issue a month or so ago with Roger
(post TONTO :), but I fear that Roger is in the 'techie' category and didn't
fully grasp what I was trying to get across about SIMPLE etc. That's
probably my fault. Your email Lynette seems to have got the point across
better than I've done.<BR><BR>There is a meeting about the ontology
scheduled on the Tuesday evening at eBiosphere where Donald, Eamonn, Karen
Stocks, hopefully Roger and a few others plan to discuss the issues. Please
let me know the key issues that COULD be addressed at that meeting.
Thankfully there seems to be some critical mass building about quickly
moving forward on the ontology. I'd like to see what I can do to ensure that
it happens.<BR><BR>There is obviously nothing stopping work on aspects of
the ontology such as Roger and Peter have suggested. If I can do anything
about setting up a Wiki or similar easy tasks, please let me
know.<BR><BR>Lee<BR><BR>Lee Belbin<BR>TDWG
Secretariat<BR><BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: <A
href="mailto:tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org">tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org</A>
[mailto:<A
href="mailto:tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org">tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org</A>]
On Behalf Of Greg Whitbread<BR>Sent: Thursday, 14 May 2009 7:09 PM<BR>To:
Lynette.Woodburn@csiro.au<BR>Cc: <A
href="mailto:tdwg-tag@lists.tdwg.org">tdwg-tag@lists.tdwg.org</A><BR>Subject:
Re: [tdwg-tag] TDWG ontology revisited ... a newcomer's perspective
[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]<BR><BR>Lynette,<BR><BR>Yes. I agree. To this end we
(Garry is the one with the Twiki skills) are experimenting with ways of
doing this using the TDWG wiki, one term per page described using dcmi
/terms/ namepaces <A href="http://dublincore.org/documents/dcmi-terms/"
target=_blank>http://dublincore.org/documents/dcmi-terms/</A> , but
alternatives do need to be considered before we make a start. I have just
had another look at the MRTG Schema at <A
href="http://www.keytonature.eu/wiki/MRTG_Schema_v0.7"
target=_blank>http://www.keytonature.eu/wiki/MRTG_Schema_v0.7</A> for
instance. A solution supporting export to a formal representation would be
ideal though if it came to the choice, accessibility should take priority.
Somewhere between Roger's lsid vocabularies and the MRTG schema page there
must be a way to achieve this.<BR><BR>Is Semantic-mediawiki an
option?<BR><BR>greg<BR><BR>On Thu, 2009-05-14 at 13:30,
Lynette.Woodburn@csiro.au wrote:<BR>> Back to basics
...<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Anyone new to biodiversity informatics
(in general) and TDWG (in<BR>> particular) might be expected, as a first
step, to seek a broad<BR>> understanding of the scope of the knowledge
domain which is of<BR>> interest to the community they've just joined.
Next, they're likely<BR>> to want to gain an understanding of each
of the main concepts and to<BR>> discover how those concepts relate to
one other. Delving yet deeper,<BR>> curiosity will lead them to
seek details about features used by the<BR>> community to characterise
each of those main concepts. So, gradually,<BR>> it is anticipated
that newcomers will gain an understanding of the<BR>> meaning associated
by their fellow community members with elements<BR>> (concepts, features,
relationships) within the knowledge domain.<BR>> (Those elements are,
after all, the chief subjects of discourse<BR>> amongst community
members.)<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> This fantastic voyage of
discovery, these first steps into Aladdin's<BR>> Cave, ought to be made
easy for any newcomer. Instead, TDWG presents<BR>> a dizzying array
of perspectives on disparate subsets of elements<BR>> within the
knowledge domain, often with only cryptic, tenuous links<BR>> binding
them together. 'Horses-for-courses'-drivers clearly exist for<BR>>
these subsets, but where is the common community understanding of<BR>>
where each element fits into the broader, shared knowledge domain<BR>>
which is TDWG's scope?<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> I fully support any
initiative which more effectively leads newcomers<BR>> (and
not-so-newcomers) to that place: that place where I would hope to<BR>>
find, in plain expressions devoid of techno-speak, a description of<BR>>
each real world element (concept, feature, relationship), together<BR>>
with a simple representation (a label?) by which the TDWG community<BR>>
prefers each to be referred; that place which evolves, but endures,<BR>>
independently of technological fashions and particular<BR>>
implementations; that place I can visit to paint a picture in my<BR>>
mind's eye of TDWG's own Aladdin's Cave.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
Lynette Woodburn<BR>><BR>> Atlas of Living
Australia<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
______________________________________________________________________<BR>>
_______________________________________________<BR>> tdwg-tag mailing
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target=_blank>http://lists.tdwg.org/mailman/listinfo/tdwg-tag</A><BR>--<BR><BR><BR>australian
centre for plant bIodiversity research<------------------+<BR>national
greg whitBread
voice: +61 2 62509 482<BR>botanic Integrated Botanical
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clear=all><BR>-- <BR>Robert A. Morris<BR>Professor of Computer
Science<BR>UMASS-Boston<BR><A
href="mailto:ram@cs.umb.edu">ram@cs.umb.edu</A><BR><A
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