Hi Paul,<div><br></div><div>What you are proposing is actually different than the ICZN code isn't it?</div><div><br></div><div>Aren't people tying those cougars they write about to the type specimen? Not a collection of specimens?</div>
<div><br></div><div>The issue you are raising about species concepts also pertain to name based identifiers.</div><div><br></div><div>What do they mean when they use <i>Felis concolor</i>? Do they mean something different then <i>Puma concolor</i>?</div>
<div><br></div><div>For a large number of species people seem to "mean" the same thing when using different binomial names.</div><div>They are either not aware of the name change or they disagree with the particular taxonomic hypothesis</div>
<div>bound to a specific binomial name.</div><div><br></div><div>There are cases where the species concept itself is wrong and either needs to be split or combined with</div><div>another. I think that these cases are handled more easily with a species concept identifier than an array</div>
<div>of name-based identifiers.</div><div><br></div><div>It appears that most differences in nomenclature for "good" species are due to the former issue rather than</div><div>the invalidity of the underlying species concept.</div>
<div><br></div><div>The issue of what is a species is still unresolved, but the system I am proposing allows one to link the</div><div>names in literature and data to a common species concept.</div><div><br></div><div>It seems clear that <i>Felis concolor</i> and <i>Puma concolor</i> map to the same species concept and should be</div>
<div>placed in the box with one label on it. This label would not need to change when that species is moved</div><div>to a different genus.</div><div><br></div><div>Under the system you describe you would have to change the label on the box with every change in</div>
<div>phylogeny, even if the box still contains the same individual members of a species.</div><div><br></div><div>Respectfully,</div><div><br></div><div>- Pete</div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 5:39 PM, Paul Kirk <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:p.kirk@cabi.org">p.kirk@cabi.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial" color="#000000" size="2">Pete,</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial" size="2">If you had a 'container' called species concept what would you put in it so that computers, let alone other people, knew what you meant?</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial" size="2">In the real world we have collections of real (individual or groups of) organisms which we put in a container and label the container with a name for that species. Others can look in this container, examine the real objects and either agree that all the object belong to a single species concept or split the objects into two or more groups and assign different names to the new species concepts. The reverse can occur where two containers are merged and then the Codes give guidance of which of the two names is the correct one.</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial" size="2">Creating identifiers for the species concepts solves nothing if we do not know how a concept is defined.</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial" size="2">Paul</font></div></div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<hr>
<font face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org" target="_blank">tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org</a> on behalf of Peter DeVries<br><b>Sent:</b> Thu 14/05/2009 23:00<br><b>To:</b> Kevin Richards<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:tdwg-tag@lists.tdwg.org" target="_blank">tdwg-tag@lists.tdwg.org</a>; lynette.woodburn@csiro.au<div class="im"><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [tdwg-tag] TDWG ontology revisited ... a newcomer's perspective<br>
</div></font><br></div><div><div></div><div class="h5">
<div><span style="font-size:12px;font-family:Helvetica">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div><span style="font-size:small">I think that the effort to organize information about species has been moving so slowly in part because of it's focus on names. Our goal is to organize information about species, names are just the handle that we use to tag a species.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:small"><br></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:small">The efforts would go much more quickly if we create identifiers for species concepts and then point the various names to that identifier.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:small"><br></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:small">I did a check via Google Scholar for papers published this year that mention the </span><i><span style="font-size:small">Puma concolor</span></i><span style="font-size:small">, and </span><i><span style="font-size:small">Felis concolor.</span></i></div>
<div><i><span style="font-size:small"><br></span></i></div>
<div><span style="font-size:small">Both of these names for the same species are still being used.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:small"><br></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:small">It would make sense to mint global URI for that species concept and then tag all papers, images, observations to that species concept.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:small"><br></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:small">As these documents are being processed, more and more information will be tied to that identifier.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:small"><br></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:small">Identifiers for "good" species could be created quickly. New observations could start to be tagged with that identifier along with whatever name the recorder would like to use. e.g. Aedes/Ochlerotatus</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:small"><br></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:small">These concepts could be mapped to the GNI data in the following way</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:small"><br></span></div>
<div>
<div><font face="Courier"><a href="http://www.taxonconcept.org/spcs/v6n7p" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:x-small">http://www.taxonconcept.org/spcs/v6n7p</span></a><span style="font-size:x-small"> </span><b><span style="font-size:x-small">hasNameID</span></b><span style="font-size:x-small"> </span><a href="http://globalnames.org/name_strings/3165624" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:x-small">http://globalnames.org/name_strings/3165624</span></a></font></div>
<div><font face="Courier"><a href="http://www.taxonconcept.org/spcs/v6n7p" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:x-small">http://www.taxonconcept.org/spcs/v6n7p</span></a><span style="font-size:x-small"> </span><b><span style="font-size:x-small">hasNameID</span></b><span style="font-size:x-small"> </span><a href="http://globalnames.org/name_strings/505310" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:x-small">http://globalnames.org/name_strings/505310</span></a></font></div>
<div><font face="Courier"><a href="http://www.taxonconcept.org/spcs/v6n7p" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:x-small">http://www.taxonconcept.org/spcs/v6n7p</span></a><span style="font-size:x-small"> </span><b><span style="font-size:x-small">hasNameID</span></b><span style="font-size:x-small"> </span><a href="http://globalnames.org/name_strings/10330292" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:x-small">http://globalnames.org/name_strings/10330292</span></a></font></div>
<div><font face="Courier"><a href="http://www.taxonconcept.org/spcs/v6n7p" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:x-small">http://www.taxonconcept.org/spcs/v6n7p</span></a><span style="font-size:x-small"> </span><b><span style="font-size:x-small">hasNameID</span></b><span style="font-size:x-small"> </span><a href="http://globalnames.org/name_strings/6689244" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:x-small">http://globalnames.org/name_strings/6689244</span></a></font></div>
<div><font face="Courier"><a href="http://www.taxonconcept.org/spcs/v6n7p" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:x-small">http://www.taxonconcept.org/spcs/v6n7p</span></a><span style="font-size:x-small"> </span><b><span style="font-size:x-small">hasNameID</span></b><span style="font-size:x-small"> </span><a href="http://globalnames.org/name_strings/3169574" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:x-small">http://globalnames.org/name_strings/3169574</span></a></font></div>
<div><font face="Courier"><a href="http://www.taxonconcept.org/spcs/v6n7p" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:x-small">http://www.taxonconcept.org/spcs/v6n7p</span></a><span style="font-size:x-small"> </span><b><span style="font-size:x-small">hasNameID</span></b><span style="font-size:x-small"> </span><a href="http://globalnames.org/name_strings/10568463" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:x-small">http://globalnames.org/name_strings/10568463</span></a></font></div>
<div><font face="Courier"><a href="http://www.taxonconcept.org/spcs/v6n7p" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:x-small">http://www.taxonconcept.org/spcs/v6n7p</span></a><span style="font-size:x-small"> </span><b><span style="font-size:x-small">hasNameID</span></b><span style="font-size:x-small"> </span><a href="http://globalnames.org/name_strings/12104361" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:x-small">http://globalnames.org/name_strings/12104361</span></a></font></div>
<div><font face="Courier"><a href="http://www.taxonconcept.org/spcs/v6n7p" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:x-small">http://www.taxonconcept.org/spcs/v6n7p</span></a><span style="font-size:x-small"> </span><b><span style="font-size:x-small">hasNameID</span></b><span style="font-size:x-small"> </span><a href="http://globalnames.org/name_strings/1758834" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:x-small">http://globalnames.org/name_strings/1758834</span></a></font></div>
<div><font face="Courier"><a href="http://www.taxonconcept.org/spcs/v6n7p" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:x-small">http://www.taxonconcept.org/spcs/v6n7p</span></a><span style="font-size:x-small"> </span><b><span style="font-size:x-small">hasNameID</span></b><span style="font-size:x-small"> </span><a href="http://globalnames.org/name_strings/11818218" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:x-small">http://globalnames.org/name_strings/11818218</span></a></font></div>
<div><br></div></div>
<div><span style="font-size:small">I have not had much success getting this idea accepted in a number of these communities.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:small"><br></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:small">So I have a proposal. Let my group start making species concept identifiers. If this concept is adopted, I have succeeded in proving my point. If this concept fails, then I am wrong. Either way, we should have an answer by the end of the decade.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:small"><br></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:small">Respectfully,</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:small"><br></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:small">- Pete</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:small"><br></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:small">P.S. This is no</span>t about changing the system of binomial nomenclature, it is about tying data together so we can start to address the world's problems in a efficient manner. Binomial nomenclature stays. ;-)</div>
</div></span></div>
</div></div><p><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green">P</span><span style="font-family:"Courier New";color:#339966"> </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:green">Think Green -
don't print this email unless you really need to
</span></p>
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</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>---------------------------------------------------------------<br>Pete DeVries<br>Department of Entomology<br>University of Wisconsin - Madison<br>445 Russell Laboratories<br>
1630 Linden Drive<br>Madison, WI 53706<br>------------------------------------------------------------<br>
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