<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>Using Darwin Core to describe a complete specimen or observation (or any biologically relevant) record is perhaps analogous to using the Dublin Core to describe a book. Sure you get some valuable information, but the content can be vastly different and depending on the end use, far less satisfying. </div><div><br></div><div>Hence, it has always been my position to consider DwC as the biological equivalent of DC (which was the original intent - I never imagined it would still be argued a decade later). That is, it provides metadata about some biological thing. Very helpful for discovering relevant information, and in some situations sufficiently rich to act as a surrogate for the actual data (e.g. putting dots on a map, or transmitting small sets of facts), and indeed, some of the terms are sufficiently concise that they can be used as data. In other situations though, far more complete information is required, and that is the role of more complex and perhaps conceptually complete, though more specialized data representations.</div><div><br></div><div>Ideally, one would consider a mixed model, choosing sufficiently concise definitions drawn from an array of appropriate vocabularies and ontologies, and structured according to agreed rules and constraints to accurately capture and convey the desired intent. </div><div><br></div><div>Dave V.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div>On Apr 27, 2009, at 18:27 , Kevin Richards wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div lang="EN-NZ" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap: break-word; "><div class="Section1"><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Again, it depends on what the data will be used for, ie how structured does it have to be, to be useful.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Your minimum fields (?) (and mappings based on DwC at<a href="http://wiki.tdwg.org/twiki/bin/view/DarwinCore/DarwinCoreDraftStandard" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://wiki.tdwg.org/twiki/bin/view/DarwinCore/DarwinCoreDraftStandard</a>) :<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">name - dwc:ScientificName<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">nomenclatorLSID - dwc:GlobalUniqueIdentifier<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">status - ?? curatorialExt:TypeStatus ?<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">who - dwc:AuthorYearOfScientificName (not componentised) ?<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">when - dwc:AuthorYearOfScientificName (not componentised) ?<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">where - ?? dwc:ScientificName ??<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Does this look ok??<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Kevin<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div><div style="border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0cm; padding-bottom: 0cm; padding-left: 0cm; "><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Paul Kirk [<a href="mailto:p.kirk@cabi.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">mailto:p.kirk@cabi.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Tuesday, 28 April 2009 10:21 a.m.<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Kevin Richards; David Remsen<br><b>Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Technical Architecture Group mailing list;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:exec@tdwg.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">exec@tdwg.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>RE: [tdwg-tag] darwin core terms inside tdwg ontology<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div id="idOWAReplyText89063"><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: black; ">I guess I should take a look at the DwC+Ext to see if it has all the appropriate 'containers and pointer' to handle complex botanical taxonomic synonymy. But is the DwC+Ext designed to handle taxonomy or nomenclature (or both)? >From your comments it appears that it's both. But if it's just the former doesn't it need just the minimum I noted below - with the proviso that 'status' would be either accepted (no more needed) OR synonym (with the accepted name and nomenclatorLSID appended)?</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Paul</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align: center; margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><hr size="2" width="100%" align="center"></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Kevin Richards [<a href="mailto:RichardsK@landcareresearch.co.nz" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">mailto:RichardsK@landcareresearch.co.nz</a>]<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Mon 27/04/2009 22:54<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>David Remsen; Paul Kirk<br><b>Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Technical Architecture Group mailing list;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:exec@tdwg.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">exec@tdwg.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>RE: [tdwg-tag] darwin core terms inside tdwg ontology</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Sorry, I'm not a taxonomic expert, I just feel uncomfortable using an observation schema for a taxonomic job. But if you have examples of representing complex taxonomies using DwC, then good oh. It will probably be fine if you have basic taxon name strings and a simple hierarchy, but issues may come up when you have for example, some names with authors and year and some without, etc, and working out if they are the same name … and as Paul says homonyms, misapplications, etc, etc - depends on what you want to do with the data. As I said probably "horses for courses".</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Why not use the TDWG ontology? That contains more structure</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Kevin</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0cm; padding-bottom: 0cm; padding-left: 0cm; "><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; ">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org">tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org</a> [<a href="mailto:tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">mailto:tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>David Remsen<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Tuesday, 28 April 2009 9:05 a.m.<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Paul Kirk<br><b>Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Kevin Richards; Technical Architecture Group mailing list;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:exec@tdwg.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">exec@tdwg.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [tdwg-tag] darwin core terms inside tdwg ontology</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Paul - I'll post some examples as soon as I can (I'm in a GBIF Science Committee meeting the next two days) that illustrate how we can use the DwC terms to create simple schemas for representing rich taxonomic data. Markus and I have modelled complex zoological and botanical taxonomies using it for testing the GBIF IPT and it works. I'll get these examples served in the next day or so. It includes some Euro+Med Plants data and a Smithsonian taxonomic bulletin on Cetacean taxonomy (zoological + botanical examples). It covers all of the components of taxonomic opinion to which you refer and more. It can represent all that I know are contained in Index Fungorum and Species Fungorum unless you are hiding a lot more, which you may well be. The only thing it doesn't do well are the explicit concept-to-concept assertions enabled by TCS but I have other strategies for achieving that. There are some homonym cases as well which I'm not sure we do well but which Markus thinks we can so I need to dig in there a bit.<o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">If you have some sample taxonomic or nomenclatural data that you think will break it I would be happy to take it for a ride within the DwC-with-extensions approach that is employed within the IPT and see if it can't be effectively addressed. I don't mind being wrong about it so long so as I or someone else can provide some clues as where to go from here.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">DR.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On Apr 27, 2009, at 4:20 PM, Paul Kirk wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: blue; ">I tend to agree with David ... but only to a point.</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: blue; ">Are we not discussing the equivalent here of database normalization ... where two diametrically opposite opinions hold - fully normalized and it don't work (performance issue) or fully de-normalized and it don't work (integrity issues - accepting that a well designed UI can protect database content (and integrity) from the user)? Here we have DwC-with-extensions on the one hand and something like TCS/CDM? on the other. By taxonomic information I assume we mean that a taxonomic opinion on a name has been expressed (usually by a person). If so, the requirements are fairly basic - name with nomenclatorLSID, status, who, when and where. It gets complex, and it's what I do not think DwC supports, when everything in a complex taxonomic opinion (homotypic names, heterotypic names, misapplications, pro-parte synonyms etc) is placed in one 'object' - the equivalent of recursive joins to go back to a database analogy.</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: blue; ">In haste,</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: blue; ">Paul</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align: center; margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US"><hr size="2" width="100%" align="center"></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; ">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a href="mailto:tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">mailto:tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>David Remsen<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>27 April 2009 14:47<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Kevin Richards<br><b>Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Technical Architecture Group mailing list;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:exec@tdwg.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">exec@tdwg.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [tdwg-tag] darwin core terms inside tdwg ontology</span><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Kevin, Can you tell me what the limitations are on being able to exchange taxonomic information with the DwC terms? As far as I can tell, you can exchange fairly complex taxonomic information short of concept-to-concept relations and I find the DwC-with-extensions approach we are using to exchanging information tied to taxa (not instances of taxa) to be a nice and practical compromise between complexity and practicality. My understanding is that the IPT can output TCS/RDF for those who want it. I am personally very happy to see the DwC taxon terms added. Finally I can provide format specifications that biologists can understand.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">David Remsen<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On Apr 25, 2009, at 9:52 AM, Kevin Richards wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; ">I see the ontology as a model of ALL (hopefully, eventually all) the data in our domain of biodiversity informatics. </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; ">I would love to see it as a standard (at the least it might give it a bit more clout).</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; ">I agree that the ontology is useful to tie other TDWG schemas together, using it as a core/master model. I would be happy to see it used for ALL tasks within TDWG, but I understand the usefulnes of the more specific schemas/standards - horses for courses.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; ">If I understand Stan here, I agree with him about the dubious use of DwC for representing Taxon Concepts/Names. As far as I know, it was really intended as a transfer standard for observation records?? It contains very limited taxon information! It really is not a overly difficult job to use a more suitable schema/ontology. I think the popularity of Darwin Core is due to its simplicity - and I wonder if what Roger is proposing will help with this - ie an XML implementation of the ontology as well as an RDF version. This will allow people to create very simple XML documents with reasonably simple/flat data, eg an xml document of TaxonName entities, with perhaps 6 or 7 or so key fields - even simpler than DwC. :-)</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; ">Kevin</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div id="divRpF910076"><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align: center; margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: black; "><hr size="2" width="100%" align="center"></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; ">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; "> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; "><a href="mailto:tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a href="mailto:tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org</a>] On Behalf Of Blum, Stan [<a href="mailto:sblum@calacademy.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">sblum@calacademy.org</a>]<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Saturday, 25 April 2009 6:12 a.m.<br><b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Technical Architecture Group mailing list;<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:exec@tdwg.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">exec@tdwg.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [tdwg-tag] darwin core terms inside tdwg ontology</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div id="idOWAReplyText927"><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><strong><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; ">From:</span></strong><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; "> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; "><a href="mailto:tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>on behalf of John R. WIECZOREK<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Fri 2009-04-24 8:58 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Roger Hyam<br><b>Cc:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Technical Architecture Group mailing list<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [tdwg-tag] darwin core terms inside tdwg ontology</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; ">Anything I should do on the DwC side in anticipation of harmony?<br><br><a href="http://rs.tdwg.org/dwc/terms/index.htm#theterms" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://rs.tdwg.org/dwc/terms/index.htm#theterms</a></span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; ">===========================================================</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; ">John,</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; ">At some point, all or (most) of the DarwinCore terms need to be added to the TDWG ontology.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; ">But having said that, I also need to say that I'm uncomfortable with:</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; ">1) The current state of the TDWG ontology (primarily the naming conventions; lets just use terms names), and our understanding of the role it plays in TDWG and how it will be managed (entry of terms, integration of terms into the conceptual [is-a / has-a] relationships to other terms); and</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; ">2) the fact that the new DarwinCore straddles or overlaps the roles of an ontology and an application schema.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; ">I understood the past TAG roadmaps to indicate that we were adopting an approach in which the TDWG Ontology would be a repository for data concepts that are present in (or implied by) TDWG standards; and that real data transmission would be accomplished with application schemas. The ontology itself would not be a standard, but would be a tool that helps integrate standards. I thought our standards would be created to function as application schemas or components of application schemas (as in the DwC and its extensions). I am now pretty confused. <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>I'd like to hear the rationale for combining taxonomic name/concept with organism occurrence. I haven't gone over all the existing docs, so apologies if I've missed that, but I think it's confusing that a (new) DarwinCore record could be either a taxonomic name or an organism occurrence, or maybe something else. Maybe I'm too attached to object orientation and just don't GET the semantic web, but it feels to me like we are stepping into squishy ground.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; ">Also, I the the DCMI maintenance procedures are also more appropriately applied to the ontology than a TDWG standard. The existing process for ratifying TDWG standards and the procedure in the DwC seem to be pretty explicitly in conflict; one can change the other cannot (without becoming another thing).</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; ">Is anyone else having these same trepidations? I don't think I've been as much of a Rip Van Winkle as Jim Croft, but I clearly missed some important shifts. </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; ">-Stan</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align: center; margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: black; "><hr size="2" width="100%" align="center"></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; color: green; ">Please consider the environment before printing this email<br>Warning: This electronic message together with any attachments is confidential. If you receive it in error: (i) you must not read, use, disclose, copy or retain it; (ii) please contact the sender immediately by reply email and then delete the emails.<br>The views expressed in this email may not be those of Landcare Research New Zealand Limited.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.landcareresearch.co.nz/" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.landcareresearch.co.nz</a><br></span><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: black; ">_______________________________________________<br>tdwg-tag mailing list<br><a href="mailto:tdwg-tag@lists.tdwg.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">tdwg-tag@lists.tdwg.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.tdwg.org/mailman/listinfo/tdwg-tag" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://lists.tdwg.org/mailman/listinfo/tdwg-tag</a></span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></div><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: Webdings; color: green; ">P</span><span style="color: rgb(51, 153, 102); "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 8pt; color: green; ">Think Green - don't print this email unless you really need to</span><o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; ">************************************************************************<br>The information contained in this e-mail and any files transmitted with it is confidential and is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient. 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