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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Hi all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I admit I’m glad that this topic does seem to be back in
discussion. I’ve been worried about LSIDs from the outset, but did not have the
time or resources at the time of decision to do anything about it. Most of this
discussion reflects what we’ve been discussing here in Vienna ever since the
topic came up. Here an excerpt from a recent mail of mine:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:
l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:Symbol'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>I
have never been a proponent of LSIDs. More to the point, I have been against
their adoption from the onset. The reasons for this are:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:
l0 level2 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Courier New"'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>o<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>It’s
misusing a technical solution as an answer for a social problem. Just because
LSIDs entail a list of (quite necessary) requirements such as persistent IDs,
dependability of availability of online references, it can in no way guarantee
this, it just nicely covers the problem up<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:
l0 level2 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Courier New"'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>o<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>I
do not see the technology being supported. IBM dropped it, and Cambridge
Semantics Inc. also seems to have gone other ways<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:
l0 level2 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Courier New"'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>o<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>An
example of the lack of dependability of LSID servers seems to me to be the
eternal problem with the TDWG LSID Server<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:
l0 level2 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Courier New"'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>o<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>I’m
worried about a group such as TDWG, which doesn’t have the backup to push
through technology development, is going towards requiring all adopters to
implement non-mainstream technology in order to maintain compatibility<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>We’ve come to the conclusion, as mentioned several times in this
thread, that what we really need is the commitment to persistence, and no
technology will support us in that. Why waste nonexistent funds sorting out an
esoteric technology nobodies supporting; why not just buy a domain, pass a hat
and set up a trust fund with 1000€ (or $), and agree to have this domain
available over some institution (i.e. university) for the next 100 years. After
that, my non-existent great-grandchildren can sort out the rest!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>@Matt: <a
href="http://www4.wiwiss.fu-berlin.de/bizer/pub/lod-datasets_2009-03-05.html">http://www4.wiwiss.fu-berlin.de/bizer/pub/lod-datasets_2009-03-05.html</a>
is online again! And a short absence/down-time will happen in all distributed
technologies. If anything, I believe that we should worry more about intelligent
caching and harvesting mechanisms!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>:)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>kathi<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Von:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org [mailto:tdwg-tag-bounces@lists.tdwg.org] <b>Im
Auftrag von </b>Roger Hyam<br>
<b>Gesendet:</b> Freitag, 03. April 2009 21:40<br>
<b>An:</b> Peter DeVries<br>
<b>Cc:</b> tdwg-tag@lists.tdwg.org<br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [tdwg-tag] SourceForge LSID project websites broken - role
for TDWG?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>If LSIDs are to succeed for the biodiversity community they
need a service with long term support from large organisations and
projects. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>DOIs have a business model. LSIDs currently do not. Without
a business model (read funding) we should stick to something that doesn't have
the implementation/adoption impediment of LSIDs and make the best of it
(i.e. just have a usage policy for HTTP URIs).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>The up coming e-Biosphere conference (June) is billed as an
opportunity for the heads of the bigger projects to get together and decide
what will happen for the next 10 years. If we are going to be using LSIDs in
the future those heads need to agree to fund a DOI-like infrastructure for
LSIDs or come out and say they are not prepared to do it. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>TDWG can act as a forum for these projects/organisations to
coordinate their actions but doesn't have its own resources.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I believe this is largely a political problem not a
technical one. It needs to be resolved quickly.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Personally I hope that whatever we end up with is fully
interoperable with the linked data movement as they are trying to do more or
less exactly what we are trying to do . It may be worth reflecting on the fact
that TBL et al are not telling us how to do biology they are telling us how to
link data up. That doesn't make them right and us wrong but it is their field
and not ours so maybe we should listen.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>All the best,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Roger<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On 3 Apr 2009, at 20:04, Peter DeVries wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>I think that the two initial comments are more about poking
fun at the messenger than addressing the message, yes web pages have typo's<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>and links between sites can be down. The connection problem
seems to be on the University of Berlin end, not linked data.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>My point is that this initiative has momentum and a number
of enthusiastic followers, where is the momentum and where are the enthusiastic
followers behind LSID's?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>One of the standards in linked data is that URI's should not
change and they have a number of good recommendations on how to mint them and
persist them over time. Some of these would apply to minting LSID's.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>It is one thing to design a standard or technology, it is
quite another to get others to adopt and use it.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>You might want to consider who has had more success in
developing widely adopted standards Tim Berners-Lee or TDWG?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I may be relatively new to TDWG and Entomology but I am not
new to biocomputing or the issues involved in developing tools or<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>techniques that are widely adopted.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>My assumption is that you want to develop a standard that is
widely adopted, and that will involve addressing the concerns of potential<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>adopters. My main needs involve tying species concepts to
observations, environmental and other data. The TWDG standards have<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>not been very helpful to me and the reliance on LSID's is
one problem. Those implementations that are available do not really work. Does<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>uBio deliver properly encoded data? No, at least not always.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>- Pete<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 12:54 PM, Hilmar Lapp <<a
href="mailto:hlapp@duke.edu">hlapp@duke.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>
On Apr 3, 2009, at 1:23 PM, Peter DeVries wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>[...]<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
3) LSIDs increase the implementation costs significantly beyond the costs
required for domain registration and a web server.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>
I think you'll find plenty of people who will argue that the cost of minting
persistent GUIDs is much higher than the cost of a web server and domain
registration in any event, and that it might be a Good Thing(tm) if an
identifier system doesn't pretend otherwise.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>[...] 4) Tim Berners-Lee feels that LSIDs are unnecessary,
and after spending several years looking at this issue I think he is right.
Even if TBL is wrong, you have positioned yourself for an uphill battle for
adoption.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
He has been wrong before. More to the point, I don't think this has to matter.
In 1998 he would have probably said that DOIs are unnecessary. They may indeed
be, from a technological standpoint, but from a social and business
(sustainability) standpoint they've clearly been hugely successful. So I think
the question that matters much more is, is there (or will there be) a similar
ecosystem and environment for LSIDs that will make them equally useful. That's
what I'm less sure about.<br>
<br>
Also, I think we ought not to confuse one use-case for GUIDs (such as linked
data) with the requirements for an identifier system for biodiversity.<br>
<br>
-hilmar<br>
<br>
BTW if anyone feels this is a long discussion that has been had before, check
out the thread that begins with "registering info: uris" on the
Code4Lib list (<a href="http://www.mail-archive.com/code4lib%25" target="_blank">http://www.mail-archive.com/code4lib%</a><a
href="http://40listserv.nd.edu/" target="_blank">40listserv.nd.edu/</a>) It
turns out they struggle with similar questions (and also not for the first
time), except in a library context, which might be much closer to a museum
context than a semweb research community.<br>
<span style='color:#888888'><br>
-- </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>===========================================================<br>
: Hilmar Lapp -:- Durham, NC -:- hlapp at duke dot edu :<br>
===========================================================<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<br clear=all>
<br>
-- <br>
---------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Pete DeVries<br>
Department of Entomology<br>
University of Wisconsin - Madison<br>
445 Russell Laboratories<br>
1630 Linden Drive<br>
Madison, WI 53706<br>
------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>
tdwg-tag mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:tdwg-tag@lists.tdwg.org">tdwg-tag@lists.tdwg.org</a><br>
http://lists.tdwg.org/mailman/listinfo/tdwg-tag<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
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