<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>Exactly. </div><div><br></div><div>My comments for what they're worth:</div><div><br></div><div>1. Since technology can be quite ephemeral, identifiers should not be dependent on technology.</div><div>2. To avoid collisions, it is necessary to have coordination of ID ranges (i.e. defining namespaces for different id generators) - that's the purpose of DNS in LSIDs and pure URL identifiers - but DNS is a transient technology so relying on DNS for namespace definition seems to be a mistake.</div><div>3. There should be well known services for resolving these identifiers - the LSID infrastructure already in place may be helpful in this, as will the Handle/DOI infrastructure.</div><div>4. There should be well defined rules for combining and splitting resolver service URLs with identifiers - so that an identifier can be embedded in a URL to be resolved without stating that the URL is the identifier. Ideally these rules should work for not just HTTP urls but also other protocols such as FTP, LDAP, and even ssh.</div><div><br></div><div>Following these guidelines would enable full use of the evolving semantic web infrastructure, legacy plain old HTTP services, and for those that really want them, LSIDs.</div><div><br></div><div>regards,</div><div> Dave V.</div><div><br></div><div><div>On Nov 24, 2008, at 18:11 , Roderic Page wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div>And the fourth question is, at what point in a setting up a central <br>service that registers and redirects do we realise that we're <br>reinventing the wheel and take a hard look at Handles/DOIs?<br><br>Regards<br><br>Rod<br><br>On 21 Nov 2008, at 14:39, Markus Döring (GBIF) wrote:<br><br><blockquote type="cite">It's funny that nearly all of us consider stable URLs as the best<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">option by now, but we still decided to stay with LSIDs during TDWG.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">The main argument for LSIDs during the TAG meeting was indeed a social<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">one: they look more stable, especially in printed publications.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">But I have to support Gregor in that initial trust in stable URLs is<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">achieved by making the URL look stable. Finally it boils down to a<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">management problem, no matter if we use LSIDs, PURLs or whatever other<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">technology.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">To get forward with this everlasting discussion:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Is there anyone left who would feel bad about moving to stable URLs?<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">And as a second question, should we have a central domain that<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">registers services and redirects to the resolving service, so that<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">people can move their service. Or do we trust the community to keep<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">their URLs stable themselves?<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">And if we prefer a central service, should we just use DNS and assign<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">subdomains for the individual services, e.g. <a href="http://rbgk13.tdwg.id/543-544-cfjf3f667">http://rbgk13.tdwg.id/543-544-cfjf3f667</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> or assign paths within the URL to services, e.g. <a href="http://guid.tdwg.org/rbgk13/543-544-cfjf3f667">http://guid.tdwg.org/rbgk13/543-544-cfjf3f667</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> ?<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Markus<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">On Nov 20, 2008, at 11:09 PM, Gregor Hagedorn wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Kevin writes<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">- ie they cannot be resolved using default HTTP resolution. The<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">idea of<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">using the http proxy version of the LSIDs is a good way to get<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">around this,<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">but this does have some drawbacks:<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">- 1st you really need everyone to agree to use it everywhere,<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">which is a<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">bit difficult considering it is not at all part of the LSID<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">standard, and we<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">struggle to get "everyone" to do anything<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">- 2nd, it seems very much like a hack - you might as well just use<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">permanent<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">http urls - ie the main advantage of LSIDs in this case is the<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">"encouraging<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">a degree of thought before making URIs publically available". But<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">we don't<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">really need to pick up the whole LSID overhead just to achieve this.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">3rd: the system is complicated and it is difficult to guarantee that<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">the sequence of reciprocal references is correct and in the right<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">order and place. I believe you would need special validator tools to<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">find errors in the system.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">And, most relevantly, I believe it will exclude many from<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">participation, because the complexity is a bit scary.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">So it seems to me like good old Plain Old URLs are just great! : <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">-)<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Or at least the suggestion of REST styled, permanent HTTP URLs as<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">GUIDs ???<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I fully agree. I believe LSIDs never were meant to be a technical<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">solution, but rather a technical wedge to hammer in to achieve social<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">change. All the LSIDs really promise are different management<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">practices.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">As argued in <a href="http://wiki.tdwg.org/twiki/bin/view/GUID/CommunityPracticesForHttp-basedGUIDs">http://wiki.tdwg.org/twiki/bin/view/GUID/CommunityPracticesForHttp-basedGUIDs</a><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I think it is sensible to agree on a community agreed mechanism to<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">keep some URLs more stable than others. That could be URLs containing<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">UUIDs, but I would argue for a social convention to agree on a<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">recognizable string marking URLs that should be kept stable as long <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">as<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">possible and at least not re-assigned. There would be little harm to<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">have a couple of such naming conventions, including e.g. non-english<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">localizations, but one could be:<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">x.y.net/stable-id/something/12317982<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Gregor<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">-- <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">---------------------------------<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Dr. Gregor Hagedorn<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Heinrich-Seidel-Str. 2<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">12167 Berlin<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">skype: g.hagedorn<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">This message is sent on a personal basis and does not constitute an<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">activity of the German Federal Government or its research<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">institutions.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">_______________________________________________<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">tdwg-tag mailing list<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><a href="mailto:tdwg-tag@lists.tdwg.org">tdwg-tag@lists.tdwg.org</a><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><a href="http://lists.tdwg.org/mailman/listinfo/tdwg-tag">http://lists.tdwg.org/mailman/listinfo/tdwg-tag</a><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">_______________________________________________<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">tdwg-tag mailing list<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><a href="mailto:tdwg-tag@lists.tdwg.org">tdwg-tag@lists.tdwg.org</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><a href="http://lists.tdwg.org/mailman/listinfo/tdwg-tag">http://lists.tdwg.org/mailman/listinfo/tdwg-tag</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><br>---------------------------------------------------------<br>Roderic Page<br>Professor of Taxonomy<br>DEEB, FBLS<br>Graham Kerr Building<br>University of Glasgow<br>Glasgow G12 8QQ, UK<br><br>Email: <a href="mailto:r.page@bio.gla.ac.uk">r.page@bio.gla.ac.uk</a><br>Tel: +44 141 330 4778<br>Fax: +44 141 330 2792<br>AIM: <a href="mailto:rodpage1962@aim.com">rodpage1962@aim.com</a><br>Facebook: <a href="http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1112517192">http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1112517192</a><br>Twitter: <a href="http://twitter.com/rdmpage">http://twitter.com/rdmpage</a><br>Blog: <a href="http://iphylo.blogspot.com">http://iphylo.blogspot.com</a><br>Home page: <a href="http://taxonomy.zoology.gla.ac.uk/rod/rod.html">http://taxonomy.zoology.gla.ac.uk/rod/rod.html</a><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>tdwg-tag mailing list<br><a href="mailto:tdwg-tag@lists.tdwg.org">tdwg-tag@lists.tdwg.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.tdwg.org/mailman/listinfo/tdwg-tag">http://lists.tdwg.org/mailman/listinfo/tdwg-tag</a><br></div></blockquote></div><br></body></html>