<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; ">Yesterday was a vacation here in Denmark - otherwise I'd have responded a little earlier, but I'm glad to see all the comments from others. I thoroughly agree with Kevin, Jason, Rich and Anna. No one here believes that any particular solution is going to be perfect. Our biggest need is consensus and the readiness to get going with a workable solution. <DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I do recognise the strength of Rod's arguments. Indeed, if I were building some system for integrating data using semantic web technologies, and my only concern was ensuring the efficiency of synchronous connections now, I am sure I would adopt HTTP URIs for the purpose. However I remain convinced (as I've stated before) that the needs of this community do subtly shift the balance in another direction. We are interested in maintaining long-term connections between our objects and have a perspective which goes back hundreds of years. This at least should give us pause over whether we want our specimens to be referenced using identifiers so firmly tied to the Internet of today. More importantly, one of the key drivers right at the beginning of TDWG's consideration of GUIDs was that the community had plenty of experience of URL rot and didn't want to rely on everyone maintaining stable virtual directories on their web servers to preserve the integrity of object identifiers. </DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Both LSIDs and HTTP URIs could be made to work for us. Both are totally reliant on good practice on the part of data owners. Personally I believe our chances of getting the community to consider, define and apply such practices are enhanced by the identifier technology being something a little more different and distinct than just a "special URL".</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Thanks,</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Donald<BR><DIV> <SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; 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"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); ">------------------------------------------------------------</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001DD4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); ">Donald Hobern (</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></FONT><A href="mailto:dhobern@gbif.org"><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#0020E4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 32, 228); -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: underline; "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 32, 228); -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: underline; "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 32, 228); -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: underline; "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 32, 228); 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"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); "> </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001DD4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); ">Fax: +45-35321480</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#001DD4"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 29, 212); ">------------------------------------------------------------</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV><BR><DIV><DIV>On Jun 6, 2007, at 12:51 AM, Kevin Richards wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I agree with Jason.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>It is not the GUID that is the cause of all the problems here - THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH LSIDS - we just need to move on and start using them in our own context<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>(or any other suitable GUID - LSIDs are only the recommended GUID, NOT the only premissable GUID).</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">If it all falls to pieces later on we could just do a search and replace to change all our GUIDs to some other scheme (to quote Bob, just serious).</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I agree, it is the RDF/metadata/ontologies that are the key to getting things working well.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Kevin</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">"Jason Best" <<A href="mailto:jbest@brit.org">jbest@brit.org</A>> 06/06/07 8:39 AM >>></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Rod,</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I've only had a chance to quickly skim the documents you reference, but it seems to me that the alternatives to LSIDs don't necessarily make the issues with which we are wrestling go away. We still need to decide WHAT a URI references - is it the metadata, the physical object etc? URIs don't explicitly require persistance, while LSIDs do so I see that as a positive for adopting a standard GUID that is explicit in that regard. I think the TDWG effort to spec an HTTP proxy for LSIDs makes it clear that the technical hurdles of implementing an LSID resolver (SVR records, new protocol, client limitations etc) are a bit cumbersome, but I don't think the underlying concept is fatally flawed. In reading these discussions, I'm starting to believe/understand that RDF may hold the key, regardless of the GUID that is implemented. Now I have to go read up more on RDF to see if my new-found belief has merit! ;)</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Jason</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">________________________________</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">From: Roderic Page [<A href="mailto:r.page@bio.gla.ac.uk">mailto:r.page@bio.gla.ac.uk</A>]<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 2:10 PM</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">To: Chuck Miller</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Cc: Bob Morris; Kevin Richards; <A href="mailto:tdwg-guid@lists.tdwg.org">tdwg-guid@lists.tdwg.org</A>; <A href="mailto:WEITZMAN@si.edu">WEITZMAN@si.edu</A>; Jason Best</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Subject: Re: [tdwg-guid] First step in implementing LSIDs?[Scanned]</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Maybe it's time to bite the bullet and consider the elephant in the room -- LSIDs might not be what we want. Markus Döring sent some nice references to the list in April, which I've repeated below, there is also <A href="http://dx.doi.org/10.1109/MIS.2006.62">http://dx.doi.org/10.1109/MIS.2006.62</A> .<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I think the LSID debate is throwing up issues which have been addressed elsewhere (e.g., identifiers for physical things versus digital records), and some would argue have been solved to at least some people's satisfaction.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">LSIDs got us thinking about RDF, which is great. But otherwise I think they are making things more complicated than they need to be. I think this community is running a grave risk of committing to a technology that nobody else takes that seriously (hell, even the <A href="http://lsid.sourceforge.net">http://lsid.sourceforge.net</A>/ web site is broken).</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">The references posted by Markus Döring<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>were:</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">(1) <A href="http://www.dfki.uni-kl.de/dfkidok/publications/TM/07/01/tm-07-01.pdf">http://www.dfki.uni-kl.de/dfkidok/publications/TM/07/01/tm-07-01.pdf</A></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">"Cool URIs for the Semantic Web" by Leo Sauermann DFKI GmbH, Richard Cyganiak Freie Universität Berlin (D2R author), Max Völkel FZI Karlsruhe</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">The authors of this document come from the semantic web community and discuss what kind of URIs should be used for RDF resources.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">(2) <A href="http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/URNsAndRegistries-50">http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/URNsAndRegistries-50</A></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">This one here is written by the W3C and addresses the questions "When should URNs or URIs with novel URI schemes be used to name information resources for the Web?" The answers given are "Rarely if ever" and "Probably not". Common arguments in favor of such novel naming schemas are examined, and their properties compared with those of the existing http: URI scheme.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Regards</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Rod</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">WARNING: This email and any attachments may be confidential and/or</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">privileged. They are intended for the addressee only and are not to be read,</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">used, copied or disseminated by anyone receiving them in error.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>If you are</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by return email and</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">delete this message and any attachments.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">The views expressed in this email are those of the sender and do not</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">necessarily reflect the official views of Landcare Research.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Landcare Research</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="http://www.landcareresearch.co.nz">http://www.landcareresearch.co.nz</A></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">_______________________________________________</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">tdwg-guid mailing list</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="mailto:tdwg-guid@lists.tdwg.org">tdwg-guid@lists.tdwg.org</A></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="http://lists.tdwg.org/mailman/listinfo/tdwg-guid">http://lists.tdwg.org/mailman/listinfo/tdwg-guid</A></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>