Characters and States and GUIDs and descriptive data
Roger Hyam
roger at TDWG.ORG
Wed Jan 25 16:10:57 CET 2006
Hi Robert,
I think you restated the question well. I am afraid I have the question
just now but not the answer ;)
To me it seems to make more sense for a user to string concepts together
to make a meaning rather than defining every possible contextual
meaning. So if a central thesaurus defined flower and colour they could
be strung together as a series of assertions in a descriptive document.
In N3:
mytaxa:rose myterms:has _:att .
_:att rdf:type myterms:flower .
_:att myterms:is myterms:red .
There would still be room for specific complex predicates and objects to
be defined centrally but in general this appears to allow for greater
flexibility in an open system. It might not suite all tastes though.
Roger
Robert Huber wrote:
> Thank you Roger!
>
> I heard about DELTA and SDD seems to be very interesting! So when we
> are thinking about GUIDs in this context I assume you would assign a
> GUID on the 'contextual meaning of terms'? E.g. what open means when
> you describe a open umbilicus?
> A GUID would then direct the user to a document/ db entry which
> explains that ? Or would the GUID be assigned to a complete SDD
> description?
>
> best regards,
> Robert
>
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> *Von:* Taxonomic Databases Working Group GUID Project
> [mailto:TDWG-GUID at LISTSERV.NHM.KU.EDU]*Im Auftrag von *Roger Hyam
> *Gesendet:* Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2006 16:02
> *An:* TDWG-GUID at LISTSERV.NHM.KU.EDU
> *Betreff:* Re: Characters and States and GUIDs and descriptive data
>
> Hi Robert,
>
> Characters and States are the building blocks of the DEscription
> Language for TAxonomy (DELTA). This has been around since the
> 1980s and is being updated as Structure of Descriptive Data (SDD)
> - which I am fairly ignorant on but believe has the same basic
> notion of characters and states but one of the SDD guys would be
> better talking about that.
>
> The DELTA home page is here:
> http://biodiversity.bio.uno.edu/delta/ but seems to be down now.
> There is plenty on Google.
>
> The SDD wiki here:
> http://wiki.cs.umb.edu/twiki/bin/view/SDD/WebHome (SDD also uses
> class in a different sense.)
>
> I think what I was saying is that the usage of classes and states
> does not fit well with the use of a thesaurus like approach as the
> 'traditional' meaning of these things is not clear in an open
> world and that this may not just be a problem with DELTA style
> data but we may come across it in other places.
>
> Hope this clarifies things.
>
> Roger
>
>
>
> Robert Huber wrote:
>> Dear Roger,
>>
>> I could not reall yunderstand what you and Kevin mean by
>> Characters and States.
>> From the example you gave, it appears to be like classes
>> (character) and attributes (states) or you want to assign GUIDs
>> to something like Thesaurus entries? But maybe I completely
>> misunderstood what you meant..
>>
>> best regards,Robert
>>
>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> *Von:* Taxonomic Databases Working Group GUID Project
>> [mailto:TDWG-GUID at LISTSERV.NHM.KU.EDU]*Im Auftrag von *Roger Hyam
>> *Gesendet:* Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2006 12:35
>> *An:* TDWG-GUID at LISTSERV.NHM.KU.EDU
>> *Betreff:* Characters and States and GUIDs and descriptive data
>>
>>
>> Kevin mentioning Characters and States and GUIDs got me
>> thinking and I was wondering if we could cover something
>> along these lines before the meeting. Please excuse me if
>> this has been dealt with on the list. I will use a Delta type
>> illustration to my point. This may not apply to SDD so much -
>> apologies if it doesn't but I am trying to get at a general
>> point. My comments may be more general to GUIDs though...
>>
>> When we are dealing with GUIDs we are talking in an Open
>> World model as opposed to a Closed World model. If I search
>> Google (open world) and don't find something it isn't because
>> it doesn't exist - it may exist but not be found for a host
>> of reasons. If I search my local SQL DB (closed world) and I
>> don't find something then I can safely assume it isn't there.
>> (This may be a naive description of Open vs Close worlds but
>> it illustrates the point).
>>
>> Taking this to the Characters/States model. We have a
>> character that looks like this:
>>
>> Flower Colour (GUID_c01)
>> - red (GUID_s01)
>> - white (GUID_s02)
>> - yellow (GUID_s03)
>>
>> And I score a taxon as "Rose *has* flower colour red". If I
>> have given GUIDs to the states then I don't need to use the
>> GUID for the character. "Rose has s01" is fine as the
>> character is implied.
>>
>> Can we assume from this statement that my rose does not have
>> white or yellow flowers? Yes - but only if it is a closed
>> world and we know that the character never changes (or hasn't
>> changed since the date of the assertion). If the choice when
>> scoring had been:
>>
>> Flower Colour (GUID_c01)
>> - red (GUID_s01)
>> - white (GUID_s02)
>> - yellow (GUID_s03)
>> - dark pink (GUID_s99)
>>
>> I may have chosen "Rose has s99" of "Rose has s99 and s01"
>> but I simply didn't have that choice before.
>>
>> So the thing that is troubling me is that Character/State
>> uses a closed world model where not finding something implies
>> that it doesn't have that attribute. In an open world system
>> one can only draw conclusions from presence not absence. We
>> could give GUIDs to characters and states but it doesn't get
>> us very far as it doesn't permit us to re-use or extend them
>> in a simple way. (sure you could build an inheritance model
>> for characters and states but this rapidly becomes a complete
>> ontology language of which there are a few already available!).
>>
>> My gut feeling is that in the long term the Character/State
>> model doesn't transfer well into an open world model. I
>> suspect this problem may occur in other descriptive areas
>> where the existing model specifies noun-adjective pairs that
>> I don't have experience of. Perhaps we could explore this a
>> little. Perhaps my guts need straightening out!
>>
>> Your thoughts greatly appreciated.
>>
>> Roger
>>
>> --
>>
>> -------------------------------------
>> Roger Hyam
>> Technical Architect
>> Taxonomic Databases Working Group
>> -------------------------------------
>> http://www.tdwg.org
>> roger at tdwg.org
>> +44 1578 722782
>> -------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> -------------------------------------
> Roger Hyam
> Technical Architect
> Taxonomic Databases Working Group
> -------------------------------------
> http://www.tdwg.org
> roger at tdwg.org
> +44 1578 722782
> -------------------------------------
>
>
--
-------------------------------------
Roger Hyam
Technical Architect
Taxonomic Databases Working Group
-------------------------------------
http://www.tdwg.org
roger at tdwg.org
+44 1578 722782
-------------------------------------
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Hi Robert,<br>
<br>
I think you restated the question well. I am afraid I have the question
just now but not the answer ;)<br>
<br>
To me it seems to make more sense for a user to string concepts
together to make a meaning rather than defining every possible
contextual meaning. So if a central thesaurus defined flower and colour
they could be strung together as a series of assertions in a
descriptive document. In N3:<br>
<pre>mytaxa:rose myterms:has _:att .
_:att rdf:type myterms:flower .
_:att myterms:is myterms:red .</pre>
<p>There would still be room for specific complex predicates and
objects to be defined centrally but in general this appears to allow
for greater flexibility in an open system. It might not suite all
tastes though.<br>
</p>
<p>Roger<br>
</p>
<br>
<br>
Robert Huber wrote:
<blockquote cite="midCPEBIOADNJBNOOJKJBLHOENDCLAA.rhuber at wdc-mare.org"
type="cite">
<title></title>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1">
<meta content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2802" name="GENERATOR">
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"><span
class="938220715-25012006">Thank you Roger!</span></font></div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"><span
class="938220715-25012006"></span></font> </div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"><span
class="938220715-25012006">I heard about DELTA and SDD seems to be
very interesting! So when we are thinking about GUIDs in this context I
assume </span></font><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"><span
class="938220715-25012006">you would assign a GUID on the 'contextual
meaning of terms'? E.g. what open means when you describe a open
umbilicus?</span></font></div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"><span
class="938220715-25012006">A GUID would then direct the user to a
document/ db entry which explains that ? Or would the GUID be assigned
to a complete </span></font><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"><span
class="938220715-25012006">SDD description?</span></font></div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"><span
class="938220715-25012006"></span></font> </div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"><span
class="938220715-25012006">best regards,</span></font></div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"><span
class="938220715-25012006">Robert</span></font></div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"><span
class="938220715-25012006"></span></font> </div>
<blockquote dir="ltr"
style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
<div class="OutlookMessageHeader" dir="ltr" align="left"><font
face="Tahoma" size="2">-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----<br>
<b>Von:</b> Taxonomic Databases Working Group GUID Project
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:TDWG-GUID at LISTSERV.NHM.KU.EDU">mailto:TDWG-GUID at LISTSERV.NHM.KU.EDU</a>]<b>Im Auftrag von </b>Roger Hyam<br>
<b>Gesendet:</b> Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2006 16:02<br>
<b>An:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:TDWG-GUID at LISTSERV.NHM.KU.EDU">TDWG-GUID at LISTSERV.NHM.KU.EDU</a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: Characters and States and GUIDs and descriptive
data<br>
<br>
</font></div>
Hi Robert,<br>
<br>
Characters and States are the building blocks of the DEscription
Language for TAxonomy (DELTA). This has been around since the 1980s and
is being updated as Structure of Descriptive Data (SDD) - which I am
fairly ignorant on but believe has the same basic notion of characters
and states but one of the SDD guys would be better talking about that.<br>
<br>
The DELTA home page is here: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://biodiversity.bio.uno.edu/delta/">http://biodiversity.bio.uno.edu/delta/</a>
but seems to be down now. There is plenty on Google.<br>
<br>
The SDD wiki here: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://wiki.cs.umb.edu/twiki/bin/view/SDD/WebHome">http://wiki.cs.umb.edu/twiki/bin/view/SDD/WebHome</a>
(SDD also uses class in a different sense.)<br>
<br>
I think what I was saying is that the usage of classes and states does
not fit well with the use of a thesaurus like approach as the
'traditional' meaning of these things is not clear in an open world and
that this may not just be a problem with DELTA style data but we may
come across it in other places.<br>
<br>
Hope this clarifies things.<br>
<br>
Roger<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Robert Huber wrote:
<blockquote
cite="midCPEBIOADNJBNOOJKJBLHOENBCLAA.rhuber at wdc-mare.org" type="cite">
<meta content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2802" name="GENERATOR">
<div><span class="304040013-25012006"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Arial" size="2">Dear Roger,</font></span></div>
<div><span class="304040013-25012006"></span> </div>
<div><span class="304040013-25012006"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Arial" size="2">I could not reall yunderstand what you and
Kevin mean by Characters and States. </font></span></div>
<div><span class="304040013-25012006"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Arial" size="2">From the example you gave, it appears to be
like classes (character) and attributes (states) or you want to assign
GUIDs to something like Thesaurus entries? But m</font></span><span
class="304040013-25012006"><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">aybe
I completely misunderstood what you meant..</font></span></div>
<div><span class="304040013-25012006"></span> </div>
<div><span class="304040013-25012006"><font color="#0000ff"
face="Arial" size="2">best regards,Robert</font></span></div>
<blockquote dir="ltr"
style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
<div class="OutlookMessageHeader" dir="ltr" align="left"><font
face="Tahoma" size="2">-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----<br>
<b>Von:</b> Taxonomic Databases Working Group GUID Project [<a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:TDWG-GUID at LISTSERV.NHM.KU.EDU">mailto:TDWG-GUID at LISTSERV.NHM.KU.EDU</a>]<b>Im
Auftrag von </b>Roger Hyam<br>
<b>Gesendet:</b> Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2006 12:35<br>
<b>An:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:TDWG-GUID at LISTSERV.NHM.KU.EDU">TDWG-GUID at LISTSERV.NHM.KU.EDU</a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Characters and States and GUIDs and descriptive
data<br>
<br>
</font></div>
<br>
Kevin mentioning Characters and States and GUIDs got me thinking and I
was wondering if we could cover something along these lines before the
meeting. Please excuse me if this has been dealt with on the list. I
will use a Delta type illustration to my point. This may not apply to
SDD so much - apologies if it doesn't but I am trying to get at a
general point. My comments may be more general to GUIDs though...<br>
<br>
When we are dealing with GUIDs we are talking in an Open World model as
opposed to a Closed World model. If I search Google (open world) and
don't find something it isn't because it doesn't exist - it may exist
but not be found for a host of reasons. If I search my local SQL DB
(closed world) and I don't find something then I can safely assume it
isn't there. (This may be a naive description of Open vs Close worlds
but it illustrates the point).<br>
<br>
Taking this to the Characters/States model. We have a character that
looks like this:<br>
<br>
Flower Colour (GUID_c01)<br>
- red (GUID_s01)<br>
- white (GUID_s02)<br>
- yellow (GUID_s03)<br>
<br>
And I score a taxon as "Rose <b>has</b> flower colour red". If I have
given GUIDs to the states then I don't need to use the GUID for the
character. "Rose has s01" is fine as the character is implied.<br>
<br>
Can we assume from this statement that my rose does not have white or
yellow flowers? Yes - but only if it is a closed world and we know that
the character never changes (or hasn't changed since the date of the
assertion). If the choice when scoring had been:<br>
<br>
Flower Colour (GUID_c01)<br>
- red (GUID_s01)<br>
- white (GUID_s02)<br>
- yellow (GUID_s03)<br>
- dark pink (GUID_s99)<br>
<br>
I may have chosen "Rose has s99" of "Rose has s99 and s01" but I simply
didn't have that choice before. <br>
<br>
So the thing that is troubling me is that Character/State uses a closed
world model where not finding something implies that it doesn't have
that attribute. In an open world system one can only draw conclusions
from presence not absence. We could give GUIDs to characters and states
but it doesn't get us very far as it doesn't permit us to re-use or
extend them in a simple way. (sure you could build an inheritance model
for characters and states but this rapidly becomes a complete ontology
language of which there are a few already available!).<br>
<br>
My gut feeling is that in the long term the Character/State model
doesn't transfer well into an open world model. I suspect this problem
may occur in other descriptive areas where the existing model specifies
noun-adjective pairs that I don't have experience of. Perhaps we could
explore this a little. Perhaps my guts need straightening out!<br>
<br>
Your thoughts greatly appreciated.<br>
<br>
Roger<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
-------------------------------------
Roger Hyam
Technical Architect
Taxonomic Databases Working Group
-------------------------------------
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.tdwg.org">http://www.tdwg.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:roger at tdwg.org">roger at tdwg.org</a>
+44 1578 722782
-------------------------------------
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
-------------------------------------
Roger Hyam
Technical Architect
Taxonomic Databases Working Group
-------------------------------------
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.tdwg.org">http://www.tdwg.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:roger at tdwg.org">roger at tdwg.org</a>
+44 1578 722782
-------------------------------------
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
-------------------------------------
Roger Hyam
Technical Architect
Taxonomic Databases Working Group
-------------------------------------
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.tdwg.org">http://www.tdwg.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:roger at tdwg.org">roger at tdwg.org</a>
+44 1578 722782
-------------------------------------
</pre>
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