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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Pete,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I’m not trying to say what you are doing is a waste of time/impossible. I actually think RDF + semantics are a good way forward, but this really implies that
we need to rely on the semantics and linkages rather than having a SINGLE ID for a taxon name. (which is what I thought Steve was getting at). Each instance of a taxon name can have its own ID and then all these instances are connected via ontology defined
semantic links. This seems more appropriate to me than insisting everyone uses the “Global Taxon Name ID X”.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">In your example of
</span><i>Aedes triseriatus</i> and <i>Ochlerotatus triseriatus</i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> – these are two different names so they need two different IDs, they may be linked by a single taxon concept,
but they are separate names. So which of these now 3 IDs do you expect people to use, and according to what source??<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">For example if we have a name, eg the Robin, Erithacus rubecula, mentioned in IT IS (TSN : 559964) and also in EOL (<a href="http://www.eol.org/pages/1051567">www.eol.org/pages/1051567</a>),
also in GBIF (<a href="http://data.gbif.org/species/21266780">http://data.gbif.org/species/21266780</a>), also in avibase (<a href="http://avibase.bsc-eoc.org/species.jsp?avibaseid=C809B2B90399A43D">http://avibase.bsc-eoc.org/species.jsp?avibaseid=C809B2B90399A43D</a>),
which ID are you hoping people will use?? Would you put the IT IS ID in your own dataset as the ID for that name – unlikely. Or would it be better to link them up with semantic linkages.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">What I take from recommendation 8 of the GUID applicability guide (as Steve puts is "stop making up new identifiers when somebody else already has one for the
thing you are talking about”) is that if you DON’T already have a record in your own database for a taxon name/concept, then reuse an existing one. NOT ditch all your current IDs and adopt someone else’s (especially hard considering it is so hard to work
out which if the multitude of names ad concept IDs that directly relates to your taxon name).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I am all for limiting the number of IDs for the “same” thing, but in some cases it is more useful to build linkages than force this tight integration of data
and IDs. Especially for taxon names and concepts, where it is complex to define if you are even talking about the “same” thing or not.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Kevin<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Peter DeVries [mailto:pete.devries@gmail.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 1 June 2011 12:38 p.m.<br>
<b>To:</b> Kevin Richards<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Steve Baskauf; tdwg-content@lists.tdwg.org; Gerald Guala; Nicolson, David; Alan J Hampson; Orrell, Thomas<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [tdwg-content] ITIS TSNID to uBio NamebankIDs mapping<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Kevin,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I forgot one mention some other things that are different about my project.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">You can write a simple SPARQL query to get a list of all the TaxonConcept's that have ITIS ids, or all those that have ITIS and NCBI ID's etc.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">You can do this on any SPARQL endpoint that hosts the data.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">You can download the entire data set and run the queries on your own endpoint.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">You can write a script that runs the query and downloads the ITIS numbers and exports them to CSV etc.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">- Pete<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 5:16 PM, Peter DeVries <<a href="mailto:pete.devries@gmail.com">pete.devries@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi Kevin,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 3:27 PM, Kevin Richards <<a href="mailto:RichardsK@landcareresearch.co.nz" target="_blank">RichardsK@landcareresearch.co.nz</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">This is exactly why this problem still exists and will be very complex to solve - everyone says "we should have a single ID for a specific taxon name, there seems to be several IDs 'out there' that refer to the same taxon name, so Im going
to create another ID to link them all up" - yet another ID that no one will particularly want to follow - you would have to get everyone to agree that your combinations/integration of taxon names is the best one and hope everyone follows it - unlikely in this
domain.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Isn't this kind of what the The Plant List, and eBird already do?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">A difference being that they tie these to a specific name and specific classification. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">The Plant list is not really even open so it is difficult to people to adopt it in mass.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">For instance, if I manage a herbarium, how do I easily reconcile my species list with the entities represented in the Plant List?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">eBird has millions of records which implies that they have been able to convince the observers in the field to adopt their system. You are correct in that there are probably a lot of taxonomists that don't like their list.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">It differs from many of the other classifications, but remember the system rewards them for not agreeing. Note the difference between the microbial taxonomists and other taxonomists. In the case of the microbial<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">workers, the system rewards them for solving problems not debating alternatives. Also, if a good idea comes out that will make it easier for the microbiologists to solve the problems they are rewarded for solving, they are less likely to care
whose idea it is.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Like the microbiologists, there are lots of biologists that work with species with the goal of addressing some non-taxonomic problem. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">They don't really care if the name is <i>Aedes triseriatus</i> or
<i>Ochlerotatus triseriatus, </i>but they do care that the identifier that they connect their data to is stable.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">In regards to the issue of market forces,I suspect (but have no knowledge of) that there were probably decisions made in devising these lists that have more to do with appeasing certain personalities that creating best list. With the way
this system rewards people it is likely that the "correct" version will float to the top only after that person has passed away. I don't have much faith that the best system will always float to the top, That has a lot to do with the personalities and how
the system rewards are setup. Theoretically, it is possible for one strong personality or group to force others to adopt their less than optimal solution - at least this seems to happen in other environments.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Also, there are all sorts of ways that people can use the publication record to rewrite history. Simply cite the review paper that cites the original paper. Or don't cite it at all.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I would have used only the ITIS TSN but if the name changes the ID changes. This isn't "wrong", it just does not solve my problem.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">* ITIS also should add the spiders from the World Spider Catalog.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Another issue that I think has inhibited adoption of a common list is that people can't agree on a particular name or a particular classification.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Since you can model a species concept as having many names and many classifications why not do so?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">If this idea was originally accepted, I would not have needed to create TaxonConcept.org.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">My plan has aways been to get something that works to solve some problems and then let some larger group take it over.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">In a sense, I am more like the microbiologists in that I am not being paid to solve this or debate this problem. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I am doing it because I think something like this is needed, and it is an interesting and personally rewarding puzzle.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">- Pete<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
My thoughts are that the most likely way this will be solve is by stnadard market type pressures - ie the best solution/IDs will be used the most and "float" to the top. It is easy to say that the global taxon name data is a mess, but if you think about it
30 years ago taxon name data were very disparate, duplicated, unconnected, many with NO IDs at all. So I beleive we are making progress and that we will continue to do so albeit at a fairly slow rate.<br>
<br>
Kevin<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
<br>
"I agree. This was one of the reasons that I setup TaxonConcept the way I did. It attempts to connect both the LOD entities and the foreign key based entities."<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Please consider the environment before printing this email<br>
Warning: This electronic message together with any attachments is confidential. If you receive it in error: (i) you must not read, use, disclose, copy or retain it; (ii) please contact the sender immediately by reply email and then delete the emails.<br>
The views expressed in this email may not be those of Landcare Research New Zealand Limited.
<a href="http://www.landcareresearch.co.nz" target="_blank">http://www.landcareresearch.co.nz</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
-- <br>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Pete DeVries<br>
Department of Entomology<br>
University of Wisconsin - Madison<br>
445 Russell Laboratories<br>
1630 Linden Drive<br>
Madison, WI 53706<br>
Email: <a href="mailto:pdevries@wisc.edu" target="_blank">pdevries@wisc.edu</a><br>
<a href="http://www.taxonconcept.org/" target="_blank">TaxonConcept</a> & <a href="http://about.geospecies.org/" target="_blank">GeoSpecies</a> Knowledge Bases<br>
A Semantic Web, <a href="http://linkeddata.org/" target="_blank">Linked Open Data</a> Project<br>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></p>
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<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Pete DeVries<br>
Department of Entomology<br>
University of Wisconsin - Madison<br>
445 Russell Laboratories<br>
1630 Linden Drive<br>
Madison, WI 53706<br>
Email: <a href="mailto:pdevries@wisc.edu" target="_blank">pdevries@wisc.edu</a><br>
<a href="http://www.taxonconcept.org/" target="_blank">TaxonConcept</a> & <a href="http://about.geospecies.org/" target="_blank">GeoSpecies</a> Knowledge Bases<br>
A Semantic Web, <a href="http://linkeddata.org/" target="_blank">Linked Open Data</a> Project<br>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></p>
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