Hi Rich,<div><br></div><div>Some of this depends on if the bulk of data associated with C. <meta charset="utf-8"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; ">flavicauda are under than name or recorded as C. fisheri.</span></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;">You can always merge two concepts using owl:sameAs, so if someone considered them one species they could download them and run a sameAs.</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;">The problem with keeping them separate is that you might have data sets that are really about <meta charset="utf-8"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: arial; border-collapse: separate; ">C. <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; ">flavicauda, but were recorded as </span></span><meta charset="utf-8"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; ">C. fisheri.</span></span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;">There was a similar example involving birds that David Remsen mentioned but I looked around and all the major records were with the entities as separate species, so I kept them separate.</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;">In the case of subspecies, and in the absence of a more elegant solution, I would record them as instances of a species concept <i><b>in the form of Genus epithet subspecific epithet.</b></i></span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><i><br></i></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;">That way you capture the full intent, without causing additional problem.</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;">The example I use is this. Two Cougar cubs are born on a mountain.</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;">One of the cubs is seen on the North side of the mountain and recorded by scientist A as <i>Puma concolor couguar</i>, the other is seen on the South side of the mountain and recorded by scientist B as<i> Puma concolor.</i></span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><i></i>Since every instance of a true subspecies is also an instance of the species it is safe to say that both are occurrences of the species concept for the Cougar.</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;">However when treated as separate strings, as they are in many systems, these are later interpreted as instances of two different things. e.g. two ITIS numbers.</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><br>
</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;">Also, I thought I might restate what I mean by the individual is one kind of thing.</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;">Think of it this way. </span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;">An all omniscient being that could see all that individuals DNA, lineage and extent of reproductive isolation could in most cases be able to determine what kind of thing it is and what other individuals are also instances of that kind.</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;">She would also be able to recognize what individuals are not instances of that kind of thing.</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;">We as humans can only hypothesize what the things are and also make assertions about what individuals are instances of that thing.</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;">So Nico and I are not really that far apart I just think that for some types of queries and questions it would be best to consider the observation of a specimen, or individual to be one of type of thing at a time.</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;">That does not mean that you can't model it in a way that states we are treating this as this type of thing, but others believe it is a different kind of thing.</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;">I also don't seem to understand why if someone can find some missing utility in existing vocabularies, and mints one starting with txn, it is seen by some as an act of heresy, while the minting a new vocabulary starting with dsw is not.</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;">Heretical enough to be written out of the sacred scrolls?</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;">Respectfully,</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;">- Pete</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><br></span></font><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 6:03 PM, Richard Pyle <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:deepreef@bishopmuseum.org">deepreef@bishopmuseum.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Hi Pete,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Yes, I know – and you are among the MANY people to whom I owe some follow-up work (my inbox of unanswered email has crept up past the 8,000 mark). But I entered this fray in part to re-kindle that conversation we had started months ago. That notwithstanding, I don’t remember an answer to the question I posed just now, concerning <a href="http://taxonconcept.org" target="_blank">taxonconcept.org</a> as a concept store. I had been under the impression that it would establish C. fisheri s.s. and C. fisheri s.l. as two distinct Concepts, with two distinct GUIDs, and a mapping of relationships between them and with other entities (e.g., cross-referencing specimens, nomenclature, TaxonNameUsage instances, etc.) The thing that caught my attention in your recent email was the notion that one would need to leave <a href="http://taxonconcept.org" target="_blank">taxonconcept.org</a> to see alternative concept definitions.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Aloha,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Rich</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span></p><div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt"><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> Peter DeVries [mailto:<a href="mailto:pete.devries@gmail.com" target="_blank">pete.devries@gmail.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 04, 2011 12:25 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Richard Pyle<br><b>Cc:</b> Nico Cellinese; <a href="mailto:tdwg-content@lists.tdwg.org" target="_blank">tdwg-content@lists.tdwg.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [tdwg-content] Fwd: [Fwd: Re: If you need something for referring to a population, then it is probably best to do it as a related class]</span></p>
</div></div><div><div></div><div class="h5"><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal">Hi RIch,</p><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">These were the very issue that we had talked about modeling last fall and I thought we were planning to work on after the holidays.</p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Check your old email I have your prototype fish list.</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Perhaps SKOS:narrower?</p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://lod.taxonconcept.org/Pomacanthidae.html" target="_blank">http://lod.taxonconcept.org/Pomacanthidae.html</a></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">
</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Respectfully,</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">- Pete</p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 4:46 PM, Richard Pyle <<a href="mailto:deepreef@bishopmuseum.org" target="_blank">deepreef@bishopmuseum.org</a>> wrote:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Alas, I don't have time to dive-in to this conversation in full (I still owe<br>too many things to too many people), though I have been very tempted!<br><br>Very quickly:</p><div><p class="MsoNormal">
<br>> The model supports links to alternative concepts. The uniprot and bio2rdf,<br>and DBpedia<br>> URI's can be considered closely related concepts.<br>> The way this works ideally is that the identifier of this insect (from<br>
TDWG) makes the assertion that<br>> this<br>observation <a href="http://ocs.taxonconcept.org/ocs/0da685c9-9cdc-4dff-baf3-38d1bdbc%0d%0a6552.html" target="_blank">http://ocs.taxonconcept.org/ocs/0da685c9-9cdc-4dff-baf3-38d1bdbc<br>
6552.html</a></p></div><p class="MsoNormal">> represents an instance of this</p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">concept <a href="http://lod.taxonconcept.org/ses/z9oqP#Species" target="_blank">http://lod.taxonconcept.org/ses/z9oqP#Species</a></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">But if I understand you correctly, alternate concepts don't exist within<br><a href="http://taxonconcept.org" target="_blank">taxonconcept.org</a>; but only as links to other repositories of concepts, that<br>
may or may not be congruent with those represented in <a href="http://taxonconcept.org" target="_blank">taxonconcept.org</a>. If<br>that's the case, then what happens when the person who identifies the<br>observation<br>
[<a href="http://ocs.taxonconcept.org/ocs/0da685c9-9cdc-4dff-baf3-38d1bdbc6552.html" target="_blank">http://ocs.taxonconcept.org/ocs/0da685c9-9cdc-4dff-baf3-38d1bdbc6552.html</a>]<br>doesn't agree with the concept represented in<br>
[<a href="http://lod.taxonconcept.org/ses/z9oqP#Species" target="_blank">http://lod.taxonconcept.org/ses/z9oqP#Species</a>] -- or any other concept<br>represented in <a href="http://taxonconcept.org" target="_blank">taxonconcept.org</a>? Do they have to hunt around through the<br>
other repositories to find the right one?<br><br>Let me give an example. The type specimen of Centropyge fisheri was<br>collected in Hawaii (e.g.,<br><a href="http://pbs.bishopmuseum.org/images/JER/detail.asp?ID=-1377454029" target="_blank">http://pbs.bishopmuseum.org/images/JER/detail.asp?ID=-1377454029</a> ). The type<br>
specimen of C. flavicauda was collected in the South China Sea, and is<br>known throughout the rest of the tropical Pacific (e.g.,<br><a href="http://pbs.bishopmuseum.org/images/JER/detail.asp?ID=-1339602635" target="_blank">http://pbs.bishopmuseum.org/images/JER/detail.asp?ID=-1339602635</a>).<br>
<br>Many taxonomists have treated these two species as distinct and valid; and<br>hence two separate taxon concepts representing populations in Hawaii, and in<br>the broader Pacific, respectively. Other taxonomists have considered them<br>
to be conspecific, and thus only one species throughout the tropical<br>Pacific, including Hawaii. The name "fisheri" has priority, so the concept<br>labeled as "Centropyge fisheri, sensu stricto" refers to the species concept<br>
consisting of individuals from Hawaii, and the concept labeled as<br>"Centropyge fisheri, sensu lato" refers to the species concept consisting of<br>individuals throughout the tropical Pacific (including Hawaii).<br>
<br>If I understand you correctly, there would be only one of these two concepts<br>represented in <a href="http://taxonconcept.org" target="_blank">taxonconcept.org</a>. For the sake of argument, let's say it was<br>
the sensu lato concept (which is the more modern interpretation, lumping the<br>two historically distinct species). What if someone made an observation in<br>Johnston Atoll, and they are a splitter (i.e. recognizing Hawaii C. fisheri<br>
as a distinct species from Pacific C. flavicauda), and wanted to identify<br>their specimen to the concept that *excludes* the Hawaii population (i.e.,<br>C. flavicauda)? Would they be able to do so? Or would they have to look<br>
through uniprot and bio2rdf, DBpedia, etc. to find a species-level concept<br>that matches the one they want to represent the observation as?<br><br>Apologies if I have completely misunderstood this conversation...but at the<br>
very least, perhaps a concrete example (with pictures!) might help to<br>disambiguate some of this thread.<br><br>Aloha,<br>Rich<br><br><br></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Pete DeVries<br>Department of Entomology<br>University of Wisconsin - Madison<br>445 Russell Laboratories<br>1630 Linden Drive<br>Madison, WI 53706<br>Email: <a href="mailto:pdevries@wisc.edu" target="_blank">pdevries@wisc.edu</a><br>
<a href="http://www.taxonconcept.org/" target="_blank">TaxonConcept</a> & <a href="http://about.geospecies.org/" target="_blank">GeoSpecies</a> Knowledge Bases<br>A Semantic Web, <a href="http://linkeddata.org/" target="_blank">Linked Open Data</a> Project<br>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</p></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>Pete DeVries<br>Department of Entomology<br>University of Wisconsin - Madison<br>445 Russell Laboratories<br>1630 Linden Drive<br>Madison, WI 53706<br>
Email: <a href="mailto:pdevries@wisc.edu" target="_blank">pdevries@wisc.edu</a><br><a href="http://www.taxonconcept.org/" target="_blank">TaxonConcept</a> & <a href="http://about.geospecies.org/" target="_blank">GeoSpecies</a> Knowledge Bases<br>
A Semantic Web, <a href="http://linkeddata.org/" target="_blank">Linked Open Data</a> Project<br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
</div>