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Comments/questions inline<br>
<br>
Peter DeVries wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:AANLkTimPay6-g7BY89Z0ynS+0RZUxtc5A6Hb_uQ0obp=@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">Hi Steve,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This is mainly and advantage if everyone supports the <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://ietf.org">ietf.org</a> proposal in
the way they support the geo vocabulary.</div>
</blockquote>
Well, up to this point, I've seen people using the geo: vocabularly as
it was described in <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/">http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/</a> , i.e. as an RDF
predicate to define string literal property elements. The use as
you've described it is new to me.<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:AANLkTimPay6-g7BY89Z0ynS+0RZUxtc5A6Hb_uQ0obp=@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The way to think about this is ietf geo could become a well
unknown URN.</div>
</blockquote>
Speaking completely out of ignorance, are there any LOD applications
that know how to interpret URIs that aren't HTTP URIs? I mean, if you
have RDF that has something like geo:41.53000000,-70.67000000 as an
object, is there any application that "understands" it? I learned in
the last few months that it's "legal" to have an LSID as an object in
an RDF triple, but that doesn't mean that any application will know
what to do with it. <br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:AANLkTimPay6-g7BY89Z0ynS+0RZUxtc5A6Hb_uQ0obp=@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">......<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Note that your use of geo is not standard DarwinCore. What is
the official word from the DarwinCore Illuminati on the use of geo?</div>
</blockquote>
Well there was a proposal on the table for including geo:lat, geo:long
in the Darwin Core standard. As far as I know, there hasn't been any
movement on that proposal (haven't checked recently). But I really
don't feel compelled to use Darwin Core exclusively in RDF that I
write. If a vocabulary like FOAF is more "well-known" for describing
people, I don't think there is any reason not to use it. I think at
this point, geo:lat is more well-known than dwc:decimalLatitude (plus
specifying the dwc:geodedicDatum isn't required with geo: since WGS84
is assumed). <br>
<br>
Thanks for the comments,<br>
Steve<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:AANLkTimPay6-g7BY89Z0ynS+0RZUxtc5A6Hb_uQ0obp=@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am sympathetic to the need for some measure of radius,
pointSpatialFit,
<meta charset="utf-8">
<span class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">coordinateUncertaintyInMeters</span> etc.
but adoption of these has been poor.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think the "radius" and area form that I am proposing is easy
for providers to understand and for tools to interpret.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It probably maps to dwc:<span class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">coordinateUncertaintyInMeters</span></div>
<meta charset="utf-8">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Here is a modification of your earlier location example using a
TDWG BioBlitz record. Note how I replace some standard vocabulary terms
with URI's.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Those things with txn, could be incorporated in to the
DarwinCore.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="tahoma, sans-serif" size="1">
<div><!-- The who, what, where and when and how of the
observation, as efficient as I can make it but with a literal for
scientific name (label) --></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><dwc:Occurrence about="<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.cs.umbc.edu/%7Ejsachs/occurrences/tdwg2010bioblitz_1607">http://www.cs.umbc.edu/~jsachs/occurrences/tdwg2010bioblitz_1607</a>"></div>
<div> <rdfs:label>OBS: Branta canadensis</rdfs:label></div>
<div> <dwc:Area
resource="geo:41.53000000,-70.67000000;u=100"></div>
<div> <txn:occurrenceHasSpeciesConcept rdf:resource="<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lod.taxonconcept.org/ses/SeecQ#Species">http://lod.taxonconcept.org/ses/SeecQ#Species</a>"/></div>
<div> <txn::hasCollector rdf:resource="<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lod.taxonconcept.org/people/tdwg2010bioblitz#Dmitry_Mozzherin">http://lod.taxonconcept.org/people/tdwg2010bioblitz#Dmitry_Mozzherin</a>"/></div>
<div> <txn::occurrenceHasIndividual rdf:resource="<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.cs.umbc.edu/%7Ejsachs/individuals/tdwg2010bioblitz_1607">http://www.cs.umbc.edu/~jsachs/individuals/tdwg2010bioblitz_1607</a>"/></div>
<div> <foaf:depiction rdf:resource="<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4126/5037315500_4c555f742a_b.jpg">http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4126/5037315500_4c555f742a_b.jpg</a>"/></div>
<div> <txn:basisOfRecord rdf:resource="<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lod.taxonconcept.org/ontology/txn.owl#BasisOfRecord_StillImage">http://lod.taxonconcept.org/ontology/txn.owl#BasisOfRecord_StillImage</a>"/></div>
<div> <dcterms:date>2010-09-29</dcterms:date></div>
<div></dwc:Occurrence></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><!-- The area is is a Location and the georeference method is
included as metadata. wdrs is used to link the area to the RDF. --></div>
<div><!-- I will change the Area ontology so that it is a subclass
of dcterms:Location --></div>
<div><!-- If others make statements about this particular area,
their RDF's wdrs will create the provenence links --></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><dwc:Area about="geo:41.53000000,-70.67000000;u=100"></div>
<div> <rdf:type resource="<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://purl.org/dc/terms/Location">http://purl.org/dc/terms/Location</a>"/></div>
<div> <dwc:georeferenceMethod resource="<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://rs.tdwg.org/dwc/terms/index.htm#GeoMethod_GoogleMaps">http://rs.tdwg.org/dwc/terms/index.htm#GeoMethod_GoogleMaps</a>"></div>
<div> <dwc_area:areaWithInFeature rdf:resource="<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://sws.geonames.org/4929772/">http://sws.geonames.org/4929772/</a>"/></div>
<div> <wdrs:describedby rdf:resource="<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://my_organization.com/occurrence/123.rdf">http://my_organization.com/occurrence/123.rdf</a>"/></div>
<div></dwc:Area></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><!-- Like the occurrence the individual is only one thing but
different people make assertions about what that thing is --></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><dwc:Individual about="<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.cs.umbc.edu/%7Ejsachs/individuals/tdwg2010bioblitz_1607">http://www.cs.umbc.edu/~jsachs/individuals/tdwg2010bioblitz_1607</a>"></div>
<div> <rdfs:label>IND_1607: Branta
canadensis</rdfs:label></div>
<div> <txn:occurrenceHasSpeciesConcept rdf:resource="<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lod.taxonconcept.org/ses/SeecQ#Species">http://lod.taxonconcept.org/ses/SeecQ#Species</a>"/></div>
<div> <txn::hasCollector rdf:resource="<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lod.taxonconcept.org/people/tdwg2010bioblitz#Dmitry_Mozzherin">http://lod.taxonconcept.org/people/tdwg2010bioblitz#Dmitry_Mozzherin</a>"/></div>
<div> <txn::individualHasOccurrence rdf:resource="<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.cs.umbc.edu/%7Ejsachs/occurrences/tdwg2010bioblitz_1607">http://www.cs.umbc.edu/~jsachs/occurrences/tdwg2010bioblitz_1607</a>"/></div>
<div> <foaf:depiction rdf:resource="<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4126/5037315500_4c555f742a_b.jpg">http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4126/5037315500_4c555f742a_b.jpg</a>"/></div>
<div> <!-- Identification history should be part of the
documentation of the individual --></div>
<div> <txn:individualHasCurrrentIdentificationAssertion
rdf:resource="<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.cs.umbc.edu/%7Ejsachs/identifications/tdwg2010bioblitz_1607_id_2">http://www.cs.umbc.edu/~jsachs/identifications/tdwg2010bioblitz_1607_id_2</a>"/></div>
<div> <txn:individualHasPreviousIdentificationAssertion
rdf:resource="<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.cs.umbc.edu/%7Ejsachs/identifications/tdwg2010bioblitz_1607_id_1">http://www.cs.umbc.edu/~jsachs/identifications/tdwg2010bioblitz_1607_id_1</a>"/></div>
<div></dwc:Individual></div>
<div><br>
</div>
</font></div>
<meta charset="utf-8">
</div>
<div>Respectfully,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>- Pete<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 6:55 AM, Steve
Baskauf <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:steve.baskauf@vanderbilt.edu">steve.baskauf@vanderbilt.edu</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Pete,<br>
This topic has come up several times before and each time I've left the
email sitting in my inbox with the intention of trying to understand it
better. I guess what I don't understand is what one "does" with it. I
suppose I could dig in and do some research, but the multiple times the
message has sat in my inbox without action tells me that I'm probably
not going to get around to doing that. So maybe you can explain it
further. <br>
<br>
Is this supposed to be usable as a "Linked Data" resource (i.e. object
of a predicate such as "hasLocation")? It isn't an HTTP URI, so it
can't get dereferenced via http. I guess one parses it as a string and
interprets the string directly based on some rules. Isn't that a no-no
in the GUID rules? I guess with enough community support, applications
would know what do do with it, but look what happened with
"urn:lsid:my_organization.com:location:123". Web browsers and
"regular" Linked Data clients (e.g. Linked Data browsers) didn't know
what to do with it.<br>
<br>
The whole issue of provenance is pretty satisfactorily handled in the
existing Darwin Core. There are a multitude of terms available to
express all kinds of uncertainty and shapes. For example, if I create
a record like:<br>
<br>
<rdf:Description about=<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://my_organization.com/location/123" target="_blank">"http://my_organization.com/location/123"</a>><br>
<rdf:type resource=<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://purl.org/dc/terms/Location" target="_blank">"http://purl.org/dc/terms/Location"</a>/><br>
<geo:lat>36.144719</geo:lat><br>
<geo:long>-86.801498</geo:long><br>
<dwc:coordinateUncertaintyInMeters>1000</dwc:coordinateUncertaintyInMeters><br>
<dwc:georeferenceRemarks>Location determined from Google
maps</dwc:georeferenceRemarks><br>
</rdf:Description><br>
<br>
I very explicitly express the type of thing, geocoordinates, datum
(implicit in the use of geo:), uncertainty, and method of generating
the data. If necessary, I could also use dwc:dataGeneralizations and
dwc:informationWithheld to explain how and why I have provided less
precise coordinates than I actually know. This is clearly more
verbose, but hey, Linked data in xml IS verbose, and existing Linked
Data applications would be able to "understand" something like what I
wrote without any kind of special "plug-in" to interpret the spring. I
guess I don't really understand why you are proposing this, especially
since you are a passionate advocate of Linked Data. Your proposed
thing is more succinct, but it doesn't seem like it would be usable by
normal Linked Data clients.<br>
<br>
Steve
<div class="im"><br>
<br>
Bob Morris wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">Your arguably reasonable recoding of the
geo uri's of your
example illustrates an issue on which so much metadata is silent:
provenance. Once exposed, it is probably impossible for someone to know
how the uncertainty (or any other data that might be the subject of
opinion or estimate) was determined and whether the data is fit for
some particular purpose, e.g. that the species were observed near each
other.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>BTW, the IETF geo proposal was adopted in 2010, in the final
form given at <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5870" target="_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5870</a> .
One interesting point is <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5870#section-3.4.3" target="_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5870#section-3.4.3</a> which
says </div>
<div> "<span style=""><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Note:
The
number of digits of the values in <coordinates> MUST NOT be</font></span><span
style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
interpreted as an indication to the level of uncertainty." The section
following is also interesting, albeit irrelevant for your procedure. It
implies that when uncertainty is omitted (and therefore unknown), then "</span>geo:41.53000000,-70.67000000"
and "geo:41.53,-70.67" identify the same geo resource.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Bob Morris</div>
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 4:56 PM, Peter
DeVries <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:pete.devries@gmail.com" target="_blank">pete.devries@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br
clear="all">
[...]<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>5) I added in my proposed "area" so that it is easy to see
what species were observed near each other. Since there was no measure
of radius in these longitude and latitudes I made the radius 100 meters.</div>
<div> Normally I would estimate the radius for a GPS reading
to
be within 10 meters but some of these observations were made where the
GPS reading was taken and the readings were given only to two decimals.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Area = long, lat; radius in meters following the ietf
proposal
but with the precision of the long and lat standardized
example "geo:41.53000000,-70.67000000;u=100"</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>[...]</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
-- <br>
Robert A. Morris<br>
Emeritus Professor of Computer Science<br>
UMASS-Boston<br>
100 Morrissey Blvd<br>
Boston, MA 02125-3390<br>
Associate, Harvard University Herbaria<br>
email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:morris.bob@gmail.com"
target="_blank">morris.bob@gmail.com</a><br>
web: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://efg.cs.umb.edu/"
target="_blank">http://efg.cs.umb.edu/</a><br>
web: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://etaxonomy.org/mw/FilteredPush" target="_blank">http://etaxonomy.org/mw/FilteredPush</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.cs.umb.edu/%7Eram"
target="_blank">http://www.cs.umb.edu/~ram</a><br>
phone (+1) 857 222 7992 (mobile)<br>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
<pre cols="72">--
Steven J. Baskauf, Ph.D., Senior Lecturer
Vanderbilt University Dept. of Biological Sciences
postal mail address:
VU Station B 351634
Nashville, TN 37235-1634, U.S.A.
delivery address:
2125 Stevenson Center
1161 21st Ave., S.
Nashville, TN 37235
office: 2128 Stevenson Center
phone: (615) 343-4582, fax: (615) 343-6707
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://bioimages.vanderbilt.edu"
target="_blank">http://bioimages.vanderbilt.edu</a>
</pre>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
---------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Pete DeVries<br>
Department of Entomology<br>
University of Wisconsin - Madison<br>
445 Russell Laboratories<br>
1630 Linden Drive<br>
Madison, WI 53706<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.taxonconcept.org/"
target="_blank">TaxonConcept Knowledge Base</a> / <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://lod.geospecies.org/"
target="_blank">GeoSpecies Knowledge Base</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://about.geospecies.org/"
target="_blank">About the GeoSpecies Knowledge Base</a><br>
------------------------------------------------------------<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Steven J. Baskauf, Ph.D., Senior Lecturer
Vanderbilt University Dept. of Biological Sciences
postal mail address:
VU Station B 351634
Nashville, TN 37235-1634, U.S.A.
delivery address:
2125 Stevenson Center
1161 21st Ave., S.
Nashville, TN 37235
office: 2128 Stevenson Center
phone: (615) 343-4582, fax: (615) 343-6707
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://bioimages.vanderbilt.edu">http://bioimages.vanderbilt.edu</a>
</pre>
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