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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=633514502-04112010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>Just a quick comment:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=633514502-04112010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=633514502-04112010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>I think Bob's points are insightful and very much relevant to
this discussion overall. We should visit this point with some care and scrutiny,
to see if we need more terms and/or controlled vocabularies to be able to make
the sort of reasoning assumptions that Bob is touching on.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=633514502-04112010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=633514502-04112010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>Having said that, I think the argument-of-the-moment is to
what extent we limit the scope of an aggregated Individual based on how narrowly
or broadly circumscribed the taxon assigned to the aggregate may be. I
saw, but haven't yet read, Steve's most recent post. Gotta run now, but
I'll be back...</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=633514502-04112010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=633514502-04112010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>Rich</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
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<FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><B>From:</B> Bob Morris [mailto:morris.bob@gmail.com]
<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, November 03, 2010 4:12 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Steve
Baskauf<BR><B>Cc:</B> tuco@berkeley.edu; tdwg-content@lists.tdwg.org; Richard
Pyle; RichardsK@landcareresearch.co.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [tdwg-content]
Request for vote on proposals to add Individual as a Darwin Core class and to
add the term individualRemarks as a term within that
class<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>An remark about aggregations, but with no insight as to its
value:<BR><BR>As a biologically naive lurker, it strikes me that the struggle
here may be an artifact of mixing all the reasons for aggregating organisms in
an observation, whereas there plenty of use cases that suit some sets of those
reasons but not others. For example some aggregates are artifacts of
collecting or observation methodology, e.g. lots of stuff in a vial.
Some, such as on paleo specimens are a consequence of a bunch of critters
being at the same watering spot when the mud came roaring down the river. Some
are ecosystem entanglements. The reason underlying the aggregation might
itself participate in some kinds of scientific inference but not in other
kinds. For example, if a bunch of species are all in the same paleo specimen,
that helps a lot with establishing the era for each of the species' presence
on earth and I suppose has implications for evolutionary history.
Lichens, I gather, are treated as a single individual and given a taxon
name, even though for much about lichen biology it's important that there are
two individuals, from different taxa, in a specimen. Etc., etc. So to me, it
looks like the problem might be less in whether there are disagreements about
what constitutes an individual, so much as that there are several different
kinds of aggregation based on \why/ the aggregation arose. It might be \that/
is why defining 'individual' just in terms of an unadorned notion
of 'aggregation' seems to lead to debates about the fitness-for-use of such a
definition.<BR><BR>Bob Morris<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 10:24 AM, Steve Baskauf <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:steve.baskauf@vanderbilt.edu"
target=_blank>steve.baskauf@vanderbilt.edu</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">John,<BR>I'm not sure that I agree
with your analysis that the definition prevents the possibility of making an
Identification at a rank less specific than a species. My revised
definition says that the Individual should only include groups of organisms
that are reliably known to be of a single species - it doesn't say that we
need to know what that species is (i.e. an identification to genus or family
can be made with the hope that someone down the line would be able to refine
the identification to species). Clarification on this point could be
added to the comment or the Google Code page, but I don't think there is a
problem with the definition per se. However, if there is a consensus
that the definition is too restrictive, I would not object to changing the
wording of the definition from "species (or lower taxonomic rank if it
exists)" to "taxon" if there were clarification added to the comments or
Google Code page that Individual was not intended to include aggregations of
multiple species.<BR><BR>I agree that there is a need for a term that
represents "collections", "bags", "aggregations", or whatever you want to
call an aggregation that includes multiple species. But I have never
intended that Individual should be that term. If we expand Individual
to include aggregates, then it becomes unusable for its original intended
purpose. I would prefer for someone to propose a different term for
aggregates of individuals instead of adding that function to
Individual. Then define the relationship of this new thing to
Individual as a one:many relationship (one aggregation:many
Individuals).<BR><FONT color=#888888><BR>Steve</FONT>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>John Wieczorek wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">Most of you probably do not receive postings from
the Google Code site for Darwin Core. Steve B. updated the proposal for
the new term Individual, and then commentary ensued on the Issue tracker.
Since there remains an unresolved issue, I'm bringing the discussion back
here by adding the commentary stream below. The unresolved issue is
Steve's amendment is the restriction in the definition to "a single
species (or lower taxonomic rank if it exists)."
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Rich argues that we should not obviate the capability of applying an
Identification to an aggregate (e.g., fossil), where the aggregate
consists of multiple taxa.</DIV>
<DIV>Steve argues that Identifications should be applied only
to aggregates of a single taxon.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Steve, aside from the aggregate issue (which should be solved
satisfactorily), your suggestion is too restrictive, because it would
obviate the possibility of making an Identification (even for a single
organism) to any rank less specific than a species. That is a loss of
capability, and therefore unreasonable.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
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style="PADDING-LEFT: 0.7em; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 1em">Comment <A
style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,204)"
href="http://code.google.com/p/darwincore/issues/detail?id=69&colspec=ID%20Type%20Status%20Priority%20Milestone%20Owner%20Reporter%20Summary%20Opened#c7"
name=12c1317def4e373e_12c126dd87d974d7_12c1220719086acf_c7
target=_blank>7</A> by <A
style="WHITE-SPACE: nowrap; COLOR: rgb(0,0,204)"
href="http://code.google.com/u/baskaufs/"
target=_blank>baskaufs</A></SPAN>, <SPAN
title="Tue Nov 2 20:16:17 2010">Today (8 hours ago)</SPAN> <PRE style="PADDING-LEFT: 0.7em; FONT-SIZE: 12px; OVERFLOW: hidden">As a result of the discussion that has taken place on the tdwg-content email list during 2010 October and November, I am updating the term recommendation for Individual as follows:
Definition: The category of information pertaining to an individual organism or
a group of individual organisms that can reliably be known to represent a single species (or lower taxonomic rank if it exists).
Comment: Instances of this class can serve the purpose of connecting one or more instances of the Darwin Core class Occurrence to one or more instances of the Darwin Core class Identification.
Refines: N/A
Please note that as a precautionary measure, I have removed the statement that Individual refines <A style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,204)" href="http://purl.org/dc/dcmitype/PhysicalObject" target=_blank>http://purl.org/dc/dcmitype/PhysicalObject</A> because the definition of PhysicalObject specifically mentions that the object is inanimate. I am not currently aware of any well-known term that defines living things.
Steve Baskauf
</PRE></TD></TR>
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<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: right; FLOAT: right; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.3em"><A
style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,204); FONT-SIZE: 12px"
href="http://code.google.com/p/darwincore/issues/detail?id=69&colspec=ID%20Type%20Status%20Priority%20Milestone%20Owner%20Reporter%20Summary%20Opened#"
target=_blank>Delete comment</A></DIV><SPAN
style="PADDING-LEFT: 0.7em; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 1em">Comment <A
style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,204)"
href="http://code.google.com/p/darwincore/issues/detail?id=69&colspec=ID%20Type%20Status%20Priority%20Milestone%20Owner%20Reporter%20Summary%20Opened#c8"
name=12c1317def4e373e_12c126dd87d974d7_12c1220719086acf_c8
target=_blank>8</A> by <A
style="WHITE-SPACE: nowrap; COLOR: rgb(0,0,204)"
href="http://code.google.com/u/deepreef@hawaii.rr.com/"
target=_blank>deepreef@hawaii.rr.com</A></SPAN>, <SPAN
title="Tue Nov 2 20:36:04 2010">Today (8 hours ago)</SPAN> <PRE style="PADDING-LEFT: 0.7em; FONT-SIZE: 12px; OVERFLOW: hidden">I think the definition should be "...represent a single taxon". We shouldn't restrict it to members of the same species (or lower), because then we technically can't include things that may represent more than one species, yet would best be treated within the scope of an Individual.
Also, I'm slightly partial to the term "Organism" for this class, rather than "Individual", because it's more clearly tied to the biology domain, and less likely to collide with the word "Individual" in other domains. I know such collision is not a technical problem, but it might lead to some confusion.
</PRE></TD></TR>
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<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: right; FLOAT: right; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.3em"><A
style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,204); FONT-SIZE: 12px"
href="http://code.google.com/p/darwincore/issues/detail?id=69&colspec=ID%20Type%20Status%20Priority%20Milestone%20Owner%20Reporter%20Summary%20Opened#"
target=_blank>Delete comment</A></DIV><SPAN
style="PADDING-LEFT: 0.7em; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 1em">Comment <A
style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,204)"
href="http://code.google.com/p/darwincore/issues/detail?id=69&colspec=ID%20Type%20Status%20Priority%20Milestone%20Owner%20Reporter%20Summary%20Opened#c9"
name=12c1317def4e373e_12c126dd87d974d7_12c1220719086acf_c9
target=_blank>9</A> by <A
style="WHITE-SPACE: nowrap; COLOR: rgb(0,0,204)"
href="http://code.google.com/u/baskaufs/"
target=_blank>baskaufs</A></SPAN>, <SPAN
title="Tue Nov 2 21:12:00 2010">Today (8 hours ago)</SPAN> <PRE style="PADDING-LEFT: 0.7em; FONT-SIZE: 12px; OVERFLOW: hidden">Well, the reason that I defined it to be members of the same species is to ensure that the term Individual can serve the primary function that I perceived was needed: to make the connection from occurrences to identifications. When I said one or more identifications, I meant one or more opinions about what that single species (or lower) was, not that there could be multiple identifications of several different species that happened to be in the same "bag" such as the contents of a pitfall trap containing multiple species, an image that contained several species, or a specimen that contained parasites of a different species. I think that there is a need for a term for this other kind of thing, (a heterogeneous "lot", "batch", or something), but I think that including this in definition of Individual defeats the purpose for which I proposed it. If there were several different species in the "Individual", then
one would have to specify which identification went with which biological individual within the "lot", which would result in actually breaking down the "lot" into single species "Individuals" anyway.</PRE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><PRE cols="72">--
Steven J. Baskauf, Ph.D., Senior Lecturer
Vanderbilt University Dept. of Biological Sciences
postal mail address:
VU Station B 351634
Nashville, TN 37235-1634, U.S.A.
delivery address:
2125 Stevenson Center
1161 21st Ave., S.
Nashville, TN 37235
office: 2128 Stevenson Center
phone: (615) 343-4582, fax: (615) 343-6707
<A href="http://bioimages.vanderbilt.edu" target=_blank>http://bioimages.vanderbilt.edu</A>
</PRE></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR clear=all><BR>-- <BR>Robert A.
Morris<BR>Emeritus Professor of Computer Science<BR>UMASS-Boston<BR>100
Morrissey Blvd<BR>Boston, MA 02125-3390<BR>Associate, Harvard University
Herbaria<BR>email: <A href="mailto:morris.bob@gmail.com"
target=_blank>morris.bob@gmail.com</A><BR>web: <A
href="http://bdei.cs.umb.edu/"
target=_blank>http://bdei.cs.umb.edu/</A><BR>web: <A
href="http://etaxonomy.org/mw/FilteredPush"
target=_blank>http://etaxonomy.org/mw/FilteredPush</A><BR><A
href="http://www.cs.umb.edu/%7Eram"
target=_blank>http://www.cs.umb.edu/~ram</A><BR>phone (+1) 857 222 7992
(mobile)<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>