I would have to think about the specific details Bob brings up, but he mentions the kinds of issues that I think are being overlooked.<div><br></div><div>What might make sense when mapped to a relational table (XMLish), might not make sense when represented as triples.</div>
<div><br></div><div>- Pete</div><div><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 10:00 PM, Bob Morris <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:morris.bob@gmail.com">morris.bob@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">Sticking my head up with a few suggestions<br>
<br>
1. (Social) I've only been a lurker in this historically long thread<br>
since all my formal Biology training came from Mr. Siegler at Red<br>
Bank, NJ High School in 1957. But I have noticed that<br>
dwc:establishmentMeans sounds like something for which I recall that<br>
the Invasive Species informatics community requires a fairly<br>
fine-grained vocabulary. Yet I've only noticed one participant (Jerry<br>
Cooper) who I recognize travels in that community. (But I don't know<br>
all the participants). TDWG in general, but perhaps not this list in<br>
particular, has increasingly strong connections to the Invasive<br>
Species world, but their use-cases will still need to be aggressively<br>
sought.<br>
<br>
2. (Technical). The conversation often has words like "attribute"<br>
"class" and RDF in the same sentence. In my experience, when people<br>
begin to formalize this constellation using the RDF stack, the first<br>
thing they do is translate ER-like diagrams into triples that look,<br>
for example, like<br>
dwc:establishmentMeans rdfs:domain dwc:Individual<br>
IMO, this should not be done lightly, because in rdf it would entail<br>
that should someone choose to apply dwc:establishmentMeans to, say a<br>
pqr:Population object P, then that pqr:Population P would necessarily<br>
be a dwc:Individual, which sounds naughty to me. It may well be that<br>
the intent is that dwc:establishmentMeans is meant to apply only to<br>
Individuals (though in my naiveté that would surprise me) but such<br>
decisions should not be taken lightly if there is any desire to have<br>
RDF as a basis for logical reasoning about Life, the Universe, and<br>
Everything---or at least about Life. Informal narrative like "move<br>
dwc:establishmentMeans to the proposed Individual class" could dig<br>
itself into the rdfs:domain hole...<br>
<br>
--Bob Morris<br>
<br>
--<br>
Robert A. Morris<br>
Emeritus Professor of Computer Science<br>
UMASS-Boston<br>
100 Morrissey Blvd<br>
Boston, MA 02125-3390<br>
Associate, Harvard University Herbaria<br>
email: <a href="mailto:morris.bob@gmail.com">morris.bob@gmail.com</a><br>
web: <a href="http://bdei.cs.umb.edu/" target="_blank">http://bdei.cs.umb.edu/</a><br>
web: <a href="http://etaxonomy.org/mw/FilteredPush" target="_blank">http://etaxonomy.org/mw/FilteredPush</a><br>
<a href="http://www.cs.umb.edu/~ram" target="_blank">http://www.cs.umb.edu/~ram</a><br>
phone (+1) 857 222 7992 (mobile)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 9:25 PM, Steve Baskauf<br>
<div class="im"><<a href="mailto:steve.baskauf@vanderbilt.edu">steve.baskauf@vanderbilt.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
</div><div><div></div><div class="h5">> Well, I also feel pretty good about most of that diagram, but I'm still<br>
> struggling with the whole "token" thing. I feel the need to discuss<br>
> basisOfRecord=LivingSpecimen which is the most complicated case and is also<br>
> related to the previous discussion about dwc:establishmentMeans as well as<br>
> my proposal to move it to the proposed Individual class. It is also related<br>
> to another issue that I haven't broached here but which is discussed in my<br>
> paper - "Occurrences" that aren't directly derived from an individual. I'm<br>
> beginning to think that part of what I wrote there (in the paper) was wrong,<br>
> but I'm not sure what the alternative is. That issue will probably come up<br>
> if I comment about what Cam wrote in his email. So there may be more to<br>
> hash out, but I can't handle it today because I've got too many other things<br>
> to do. I've been mentally composing what I hope is a lucid presentation,<br>
> but it hasn't hit the keyboard yet.<br>
><br>
> Steve<br>
><br>
> I have to say, this has been about the most productive (if volumunous)<br>
> list-discussion I've had in...well...maybe ever. It seems we've both been<br>
> equally persuasive, and equally willing to concede. How rare that happens<br>
> in an internet forum! I'm not sure there's anything left that we disagee<br>
> about. If the "diagram1" seems to resonate with everyone as the most<br>
> "normalized" ER diagram we'll likely ever need, and if we can somehow<br>
> accommodate flexibility in RDF for collapsing attributes to different<br>
> classes (but only from the "one" side to the "many" side) -- then we might<br>
> have achived the elusive Holy Grail of biodiversity informatics: true<br>
> consensus.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Thanks for your great feedback and for challenging my statements. I need<br>
><br>
><br>
> that!<br>
><br>
> Likewise!<br>
><br>
> Aloha,<br>
> Rich<br>
><br>
><br>
> .<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Steven J. Baskauf, Ph.D., Senior Lecturer<br>
> Vanderbilt University Dept. of Biological Sciences<br>
><br>
> postal mail address:<br>
> VU Station B 351634<br>
> Nashville, TN 37235-1634, U.S.A.<br>
><br>
> delivery address:<br>
> 2125 Stevenson Center<br>
> 1161 21st Ave., S.<br>
> Nashville, TN 37235<br>
><br>
> office: 2128 Stevenson Center<br>
> phone: (615) 343-4582, fax: (615) 343-6707<br>
> <a href="http://bioimages.vanderbilt.edu" target="_blank">http://bioimages.vanderbilt.edu</a><br>
><br>
</div></div><div class="im">> _______________________________________________<br>
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><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>--<br>
Robert A. Morris<br>
Emeritus Professor of Computer Science<br>
UMASS-Boston<br>
100 Morrissey Blvd<br>
Boston, MA 02125-3390<br>
Associate, Harvard University Herbaria<br>
email: <a href="mailto:morris.bob@gmail.com">morris.bob@gmail.com</a><br>
web: <a href="http://bdei.cs.umb.edu/" target="_blank">http://bdei.cs.umb.edu/</a><br>
web: <a href="http://etaxonomy.org/mw/FilteredPush" target="_blank">http://etaxonomy.org/mw/FilteredPush</a><br>
<a href="http://www.cs.umb.edu/~ram" target="_blank">http://www.cs.umb.edu/~ram</a><br>
phone (+1) 857 222 7992 (mobile)<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>----------------------------------------------------------------<br>Pete DeVries<br>Department of Entomology<br>University of Wisconsin - Madison<br>445 Russell Laboratories<br>
1630 Linden Drive<br>Madison, WI 53706<br><a href="http://www.taxonconcept.org/" target="_blank">TaxonConcept Knowledge Base</a> / <a href="http://lod.geospecies.org/" target="_blank">GeoSpecies Knowledge Base</a><br><a href="http://about.geospecies.org/" target="_blank">About the GeoSpecies Knowledge Base</a><br>
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