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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=927202707-05072010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>I think that the basic problem is, as with a
taxon "name", there are as many notions for what is meant by a taxon
"concept" as there are people who have uttered the words.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=927202707-05072010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=927202707-05072010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>I think that Peter D. has a good example of what a taxonID
might resolve to. But the question is, which bits of metadata can change
under the same taxonID, and which bits would prompt the generation of a new
taxonID? This is the fundamental problem I've always had with creating
permanent GUIDs for "taxon concepts" (by anyone's definition, let alone
*everyone's* definition). I've had a similar question concerning ITIS
TSNs. It's still not entirely clear to me when something generates a new
TSN, vs. when something represents a correction or amendment (e.g., via a
comment) to an existing TSN.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=927202707-05072010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=927202707-05072010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>So, for example. Suppose authority "X" has a
well-defined and metadata-rich taxonID for their concept of "Aus bus".
Later on, they decide that the species "bus" should be moved to the genus
"Xus". None of the other metadata (occurence records, diagnostic
characters, associated DNA sequences, etc., etc.) have changed. *Only* the genus
placement has changed. Should Authority "X" brand a new taxonID for
this? In my mind, no. Because in my mind, the species concept is
defined only by the stuff related to "bus". Changing the genus doesn't
affect the contents or concept of "bus", it only changes the concept
circumscription for the genus "Xus" (and for "Aus", if it is retained as a valid
genus that no longer includes the species "bus").</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=927202707-05072010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=927202707-05072010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>I doubt, however, that there would be universal agreement
about this. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=927202707-05072010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=927202707-05072010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>Rich</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
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<FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><B>From:</B> tdwg-content-bounces@lists.tdwg.org
[mailto:tdwg-content-bounces@lists.tdwg.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Tim Robertson
(GBIF)<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, July 04, 2010 7:09 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Kevin
Richards<BR><B>Cc:</B> tdwg-content@lists.tdwg.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[tdwg-content] Taxon Concept dilemma<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Hi Kevin,
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>It seems fine to me Kevin, as long as the intention remains the same.
I would imagine slow changing content behind the object (revisions in
higher names perhaps) and not complete rewrites of the content.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Is there anything inside the Taxon that you can always rely on (something
immutable)? E.g. a constant ID from the nomenclatural organisation
level, or perhaps some lexcal group ID? Perhaps you could somehow select
one reference ID from the nomenclatural or concept level as the Taxon ID, and
then you could promote the Taxon as a dynamically assembled object with the
best representation (at request time) for ConceptX. This is
then more analogous to getTaxonFor(conceptX) than getTaxonById(X).</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>The alternative to what you are suggesting would presumably be creating
new ID for any change, which seems like it would be difficult to keep anything
in sync, unless I can subscribe to and understand your changes
constantly.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Cheers,</DIV>
<DIV>Tim</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Jul 5, 2010, at 5:43 AM, Kevin Richards wrote:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN
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<DIV lang=EN-NZ vlink="purple" link="blue">
<DIV style="page: WordSection1" class=WordSection1>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><SPAN
lang=EN-US>Hello all,<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><SPAN
lang=EN-US><O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><SPAN
lang=EN-US>I have an issue that I would like some comment
on…<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><SPAN
lang=EN-US><O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><SPAN
lang=EN-US>We have some data that covers Taxa, Names and Concept
relationships.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><SPAN
lang=EN-US>Eg<O:P></O:P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="TEXT-INDENT: -18pt; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><SPAN>-<SPAN
style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US>A
Taxon table that contains the nomenclatural details + accepted name + parent
name</SPAN><O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV
style="TEXT-INDENT: -18pt; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><SPAN>-<SPAN
style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US>Concept + relationship tables that contain details about the name
+ references where the name has been used in a taxonomic sense (ie not
nomenclatural information) – this is specifically a link between the Name
and a Reference</SPAN><O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">We
have fairly permanent Ids for the Taxon Name (nomenclatural) and the
Concepts, but I now what to consider the ID to cover the whole Taxon (ie the
Nomenclatural data + taxon rank + parent name + accepted name, etc, as “we”
understand them). (Probably equivalent to the taxonID in
Dwc)<O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">The
problem is this tends to be much more dynamic data – ie, in this particular
case we have aggregated data from a variety of providers and are in
continual revision of this data - as we revise the data the details such as
the accepted name may change – this troubles me a bit, because this could be
seen as fundamentally changing the definition of the object behind the
taxonID. However, I suspect this is a common case that people find
themselves in – ie revision/tidying of aggregated datasets must be quite
common.<O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I
would prefer to NOT change the taxonID every time we revise that data
(taking the angle that these changes are corrections, so are not changing
the object itself).<O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Should
it be OK to have an object type like this, that is likely to change, but
keep the ID permanent for it – ie accept that some object types are quite
dynamic?<O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">The
only other option is to maintain a hideous version audit trail, that
probably hinders the use of the data more than it benefits the end user by
providing “stability”.<O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Any
thoughts?<O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Kevin<O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV><BR>
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