[tdwg-content] Easting and northing
John Wieczorek
tuco at berkeley.edu
Tue Feb 10 15:14:09 CET 2015
That looks great to me. What kind of a 'suspicious' notice do you get?
On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 6:59 AM, Quentin Groom <quentin.groom at br.fgov.be>
wrote:
> Here is an example of DwC where I think I'm correct, but GBIF considered
> my verbatim data "suspicious". Plant recording in Britain is conducted in
> grid squares of the Ordanace Survey. Those coordinates have a very specific
> notation so that my verbatimCoordinatesare some thing like this NZ3767 and
> my verbatimCoordinateSystem is OSGB36 (e.g. http://www.gbif.org/
> occurrence/1020049283/verbatim). To me this is correct usage of the
> verbatim fields. I do complete the decimal longitude and latitude fields,
> based upon the centre of the square, but as these are based on the
> point-radius view of observations they are largely useless for real
> analysis.
> To make my records internationally acceptable I also complete the
> footprintWKT and footprintSRS, but although this is probably the best
> description of the locality I'm fairly sure that nobody will actually use
> it.
> Quentin
>
> Roderic Page wrote:
>
>> Is it wrong that I’d be happier if Darwin Core itself had terms for
>> easting, northing, and zones so there was no ambiguity (or at least it
>> would be minimised). Putting stuff in text fields and hoping people can
>> figure it out is just asking for trouble, as is overloading fields.
>>
>> If they do go into verbatimCoordinates, I wonder if the spec/examples
>> could add a regular expression to they would have to pass in order to be
>> accepted.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Rod
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>> Roderic Page
>> Professor of Taxonomy
>> Institute of Biodiversity, Animal Health and Comparative Medicine
>> College of Medical, Veterinary and Life Sciences
>> Graham Kerr Building
>> University of Glasgow
>> Glasgow G12 8QQ, UK
>>
>> Email: Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk <mailto:Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk>
>> Tel: +44 141 330 4778
>> Skype: rdmpage
>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/rdmpage
>> LinkedIn: http://uk.linkedin.com/in/rdmpage
>> Twitter: http://twitter.com/rdmpage
>> Blog: http://iphylo.blogspot.com
>> ORCID: http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7101-9767
>> Citations: http://scholar.google.co.uk/citations?hl=en&user=4Z5WABAAAAAJ
>> <http://scholar.google.co.uk/citations?hl=en&user=4Z5WABAAAAAJ>
>> ResearchGate https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Roderic_Page
>>
>>
>> On 9 Feb 2015, at 17:03, Markus Döring <m.doering at mac.com <mailto:
>>> m.doering at mac.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Rod & John,
>>>
>>> for the future documentation of dwc I’d be curious if we all think it is
>>> a good idea to overload verbatimLongitude/Latitude with not strictly
>>> lon/lat values like easting and northing.
>>> I *think* I would prefer a definition, comment and examples where UTM
>>> values go into the verbatimCoordinates field only, even though it would be
>>> great to not have to parse them out from a string.
>>> Any strong opinions?
>>>
>>>
>>> On 09 Feb 2015, at 17:25, Roderic Page <Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk
>>> <mailto:Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi John,
>>>>
>>>> I guess my concern is that the TTU dataset in VertNet/GBIF didn’t
>>>> explicitly say that the verbatimLatitude/Longitude were easting and
>>>> northings (other values it has in those fields for other records are lats
>>>> and longs), nor did it include the zone information, or the fact that the
>>>> values were for south of the equator (TTU itself doesn’t say that either).
>>>> I had to go back to the TTU web site to discover that.
>>>>
>>>> So, even if parsing is a mess (and I agree it pretty much always is)
>>>> the TTU output didn’t have everything needed to figure out how to parse the
>>>> data correctly. It would be nice if the data that gets to the aggregator is
>>>> complete enough to be interepreted, leaving aside in what fields people
>>>> stick that information.
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>> Rod
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Roderic Page
>>>> Professor of Taxonomy
>>>> Institute of Biodiversity, Animal Health and Comparative Medicine
>>>> College of Medical, Veterinary and Life Sciences
>>>> Graham Kerr Building
>>>> University of Glasgow
>>>> Glasgow G12 8QQ, UK
>>>>
>>>> Email: Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk <mailto:Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk>
>>>> Tel: +44 141 330 4778
>>>> Skype: rdmpage
>>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/rdmpage
>>>> LinkedIn: http://uk.linkedin.com/in/rdmpage
>>>> Twitter: http://twitter.com/rdmpage
>>>> Blog: http://iphylo.blogspot.com
>>>> ORCID: http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7101-9767
>>>> Citations: http://scholar.google.co.uk/citations?hl=en&user=
>>>> 4Z5WABAAAAAJ <http://scholar.google.co.uk/citations?hl=en&user=
>>>> 4Z5WABAAAAAJ>
>>>> ResearchGate https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Roderic_Page
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 9 Feb 2015, at 16:12, John Wieczorek <tuco at berkeley.edu <mailto:
>>>>> tuco at berkeley.edu>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Rod,
>>>>>
>>>>> I would treat easting and northing as latitude and longitude, but not
>>>>> following strictly the definition in Darwin Core. There is actually value
>>>>> in being able to have the easting (longitude) separate from the northing
>>>>> (latitude) if the source has them separated. It makes it that much less
>>>>> ambiguous to interpret. I would also have that full tuple as in the example
>>>>> you gave (18M 166624 9840350) along with "UTM" in verbatimCoordinateSystem,
>>>>> and a datum or something similar in verbatimSRS. We want more information,
>>>>> not less, when it comes time to try to turn this all into more readily
>>>>> usable information (decimalLatitude, decimalLongitude, geodeticDatum,
>>>>> coordinateUncertaintyInMeters). All of this verbatim separation arose
>>>>> from the heyday of massive collaborative georeferencing in MaNIS, HerpNET,
>>>>> and ORNIS where we were able to take good advantage of whatever information
>>>>> the source had, and that is why verbatimCoordinateSystem is part of the
>>>>> offerings, to help with tha parsing problem if the original source is known.
>>>>>
>>>>> In short, I wouldn't have it any other way than the way it is done
>>>>> with TTU. It actually allows use to extract more information correctly
>>>>> rather than less. Parsing is a mess, but it is a mess anyway. It takes me
>>>>> about 25 steps to parse the variations I see in verbatim coordinates in
>>>>> VertNet. but it is worth it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, to get back to TTU and upgrade their venerable migrator and see
>>>>> how things look afterwords. We appreciate the careful eye and the quality
>>>>> feedback reports to Github on TTU's behalf.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> John
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 8:50 AM, Roderic Page <
>>>>> Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk <mailto:Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Dag,
>>>>>
>>>>> Gack, this is where things get messy. I wouldn’t treat easting
>>>>> and northing as latitude and longitude (although they are
>>>>> obviously related). When I write code to parse verbatim
>>>>> latitude and longitude the last thing I expect is easting and
>>>>> northing (it’s hard enough already given the various ways
>>>>> people write lats and longs). There seems to be enough
>>>>> ambiguity here to really mess things up, as indeed they have
>>>>> for the TTU dataset.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>>
>>>>> Rod
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Roderic Page
>>>>> Professor of Taxonomy
>>>>> Institute of Biodiversity, Animal Health and Comparative Medicine
>>>>> College of Medical, Veterinary and Life Sciences
>>>>> Graham Kerr Building
>>>>> University of Glasgow
>>>>> Glasgow G12 8QQ, UK
>>>>>
>>>>> Email: Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk
>>>>> <mailto:Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk>
>>>>> Tel: +44 141 330 4778 <tel:%2B44%20141%20330%204778>
>>>>> Skype: rdmpage
>>>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/rdmpage
>>>>> LinkedIn: http://uk.linkedin.com/in/rdmpage
>>>>> Twitter: http://twitter.com/rdmpage
>>>>> Blog: http://iphylo.blogspot.com <http://iphylo.blogspot.com/>
>>>>> ORCID: http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7101-9767
>>>>> Citations: http://scholar.google.co.uk/citations?hl=en&user=
>>>>> 4Z5WABAAAAAJ
>>>>> <http://scholar.google.co.uk/citations?hl=en&user=4Z5WABAAAAAJ>
>>>>> ResearchGate https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Roderic_Page
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 9 Feb 2015, at 11:41, Dag Endresen <dag.endresen at gmail.com
>>>>>> <mailto:dag.endresen at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Rod,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have assumed that the purpose of the dwc:verbatimCoordinates
>>>>>> term is
>>>>>> to allow for reporting coordinates originally recorded as one
>>>>>> single
>>>>>> tuple such as the MGRS (Military Grid Reference System).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While original source coordinates that do have two tuples such
>>>>>> as UTM
>>>>>> would use dwc:verbatimLongitude (for the Easting or X coordinate
>>>>>> tuple) and dwc:verbatimLatitude (for the Northing or Y coordinate
>>>>>> tuple).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>> Dag
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 9 February 2015 at 11:57, Roderic Page
>>>>>> <Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk
>>>>>> <mailto:Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi John,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, if I understand you correctly, you would have hoped that
>>>>>>> TTU would have
>>>>>>> output something like this:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> “dwc:verbatimCoordinates” : “18M 166624 9840350”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> rather than put the easting and northing into
>>>>>>> verbatimLatitude and
>>>>>>> verbatimLongitude.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rod
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Roderic Page
>>>>>>> Professor of Taxonomy
>>>>>>> Institute of Biodiversity, Animal Health and Comparative Medicine
>>>>>>> College of Medical, Veterinary and Life Sciences
>>>>>>> Graham Kerr Building
>>>>>>> University of Glasgow
>>>>>>> Glasgow G12 8QQ, UK
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Email: Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk
>>>>>>> <mailto:Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk>
>>>>>>> Tel: +44 141 330 4778 <tel:%2B44%20141%20330%204778>
>>>>>>> Skype: rdmpage
>>>>>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/rdmpage
>>>>>>> LinkedIn: http://uk.linkedin.com/in/rdmpage
>>>>>>> Twitter: http://twitter.com/rdmpage
>>>>>>> Blog: http://iphylo.blogspot.com <http://iphylo.blogspot.com/>
>>>>>>> ORCID: http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7101-9767
>>>>>>> Citations:
>>>>>>> http://scholar.google.co.uk/citations?hl=en&user=4Z5WABAAAAAJ
>>>>>>> <http://scholar.google.co.uk/citations?hl=en&user=4Z5WABAAAAAJ>
>>>>>>> ResearchGate https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Roderic_Page
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 8 Feb 2015, at 20:22, John Wieczorek <tuco at berkeley.edu
>>>>>>> <mailto:tuco at berkeley.edu>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Rod,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The verbatimLatitude, verbatimLongitude, and
>>>>>>> verbatimCoordinates were all
>>>>>>> intended to be able to capture the original coordinates used
>>>>>>> at the source,
>>>>>>> where decimalLatitude and decimalLongitude, with
>>>>>>> geodeticDatum, were meant
>>>>>>> to contain the the easy to act on global system (UTMs do not
>>>>>>> cover the
>>>>>>> entire planet, for example). The verbatimCoordinate term's
>>>>>>> definition shows
>>>>>>> that this was the intent, but verbatimLatitude and
>>>>>>> verbatimLongitude do not.
>>>>>>> When we get the examples separated from the term definitions,
>>>>>>> it should be
>>>>>>> easier to make this clear.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 2:36 PM, Dag Endresen
>>>>>>> <dag.endresen at gmail.com <mailto:dag.endresen at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Rod,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At least in Norway, it is very common for the GBIF node to
>>>>>>>> receive
>>>>>>>> (only) Easting and Northing of UTM zones 32V to 36W. For
>>>>>>>> many datasets
>>>>>>>> we will on routine automatically make the conversion to decimal
>>>>>>>> degrees (and WGS84) at the node before these datasets are
>>>>>>>> published to
>>>>>>>> the GBIF portal. When people download occurrences from the
>>>>>>>> Norwegian
>>>>>>>> "GBIF portal", Artskart, my impression is that the UTM 32V
>>>>>>>> (and the
>>>>>>>> 33V) Easting and Northing coordinate format is actually more
>>>>>>>> popular
>>>>>>>> than the decimal degree format - this is because the
>>>>>>>> geographic data
>>>>>>>> layers for Norway more often are made available in the UTM
>>>>>>>> format
>>>>>>>> (most often 32V or 33V) [1]. And yes, this continued present day
>>>>>>>> official use of such a wide variety of coordinate formats
>>>>>>>> frustrates
>>>>>>>> me too... The historic use reported with the verbatim terms,
>>>>>>>> is of
>>>>>>>> course difficult to do anything with...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I assume that Easting and Northing coordinates are both
>>>>>>>> valid and very
>>>>>>>> common values (and not only in Norway) for the Darwin Core
>>>>>>>> verbatim
>>>>>>>> coordinate terms (dwc:verbatimLatitude and
>>>>>>>> dwc:verbatimLongitude or
>>>>>>>> dwc:verbatimCoordinates), but of course only at all useful when
>>>>>>>> accompanied by the respective dwc:verbatimCoordinateSystem and
>>>>>>>> dwc:verbatimSRS also reported. (And that the
>>>>>>>> dwc:decimalLatitude and
>>>>>>>> dwc:decimalLongitude correctly reported in WGS84 should
>>>>>>>> preferably
>>>>>>>> also always be there). I believe that Darwin Core is already
>>>>>>>> fine with
>>>>>>>> respect to terms to report geographic coordinates. If at all any
>>>>>>>> additions are useful, I believe that identifying and
>>>>>>>> recommending
>>>>>>>> terms from more specialized geographic vocabularies and
>>>>>>>> ontologies
>>>>>>>> might be much more useful than adding any new dwc:Location
>>>>>>>> terms to
>>>>>>>> Darwin Core. In fact, most of the dwc:Location terms might
>>>>>>>> perhaps
>>>>>>>> preferably be replaced by terms from the geography
>>>>>>>> community... such
>>>>>>>> as perhaps [2] and [3] (as a start).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [1]
>>>>>>>> https://dagendresen.wordpress.com/2013/11/22/convert-
>>>>>>>> coordinate-srs/
>>>>>>>> [2] http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos#
>>>>>>>> [3] http://www.geonames.org/ontology/documentation.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>> Dag
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 7 February 2015 at 13:02, Roderic Page
>>>>>>>> <Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk <mailto:Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Pardon my ignorance, but has there ever been a discussion
>>>>>>>>> of easting and
>>>>>>>>> northing values in regards to Darwin Core? AFAIK the
>>>>>>>>> current standard
>>>>>>>>> doesn’t mention them. The reason I’m asking is that I’ve
>>>>>>>>> just come
>>>>>>>>> across
>>>>>>>>> some VerbatimLatitude and VerbatimLongitude values in a
>>>>>>>>> dataset that is
>>>>>>>>> aggregated by VertNet (and hence GBIF) where (after some head
>>>>>>>>> scratching) I
>>>>>>>>> realised that the verbatim values were actually Easting and
>>>>>>>>> Northing
>>>>>>>>> (which
>>>>>>>>> I didn’t know existed until yesterday). Details are here:
>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/ttu-vertnet/ttu-mammals/issues/11
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I’m guessing this isn’t a terribly common way to record
>>>>>>>>> location
>>>>>>>>> information, but it looks like in this case the lack of
>>>>>>>>> support for this
>>>>>>>>> type of data has resulted in somebody trying to shoehorn
>>>>>>>>> them into
>>>>>>>>> VerbatimLatitude and VerbatimLongitude, resulting in values
>>>>>>>>> which are
>>>>>>>>> uninterpretable to aggregators further up the chain.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Rod
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Dag Endresen, Ph.D.
>>>>>>>> Private email: dag.endresen at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> <mailto:dag.endresen at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> Work email: dag.endresen at nhm.uio.no
>>>>>>>> <mailto:dag.endresen at nhm.uio.no>
>>>>>>>> Mobile: +47 4061 2982
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> tdwg-content mailing list
>>>>>>>> tdwg-content at lists.tdwg.org <mailto:tdwg-content at lists.tdwg.org
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> http://lists.tdwg.org/mailman/listinfo/tdwg-content
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- Dag Endresen, Ph.D.
>>>>>> Private email: dag.endresen at gmail.com
>>>>>> <mailto:dag.endresen at gmail.com>
>>>>>> Work email: dag.endresen at nhm.uio.no
>>>>>> <mailto:dag.endresen at nhm.uio.no>
>>>>>> Mobile: +47 4061 2982
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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> --
> Dr. Quentin Groom
> (Botany and Information Technology)
>
> Botanic Garden, Meise
> Domein van Bouchout
> B-1860 Meise
> Belgium
>
> ORCID: 0000-0002-0596-5376
>
> Landline; +32 (0) 226 009 20 ext. 364
> FAX: +32 (0) 226 009 45
>
> E-mail: quentin.groom at br.fgov.be
> Skype name: qgroom
> Website: www.botanicgarden.be
>
>
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