[tdwg-content] Easting and northing

Quentin Groom quentin.groom at br.fgov.be
Tue Feb 10 10:59:03 CET 2015


Here is an example of DwC where I think I'm correct, but GBIF considered 
my verbatim data "suspicious". Plant recording in Britain is conducted 
in grid squares of the Ordanace Survey. Those coordinates have a very 
specific notation so that my verbatimCoordinatesare some thing like this 
NZ3767 and my verbatimCoordinateSystem is OSGB36 (e.g. 
http://www.gbif.org/occurrence/1020049283/verbatim). To me this is 
correct usage of the verbatim fields. I do complete the decimal 
longitude and latitude fields, based upon the centre of the square, but 
as these are based on the point-radius view of observations they are 
largely useless for real analysis.
To make my records internationally acceptable I also complete the 
footprintWKT and footprintSRS, but although this is probably the best 
description of the locality I'm fairly sure that nobody will actually 
use it.
Quentin

Roderic Page wrote:
> Is it wrong that I’d be happier if Darwin Core itself had terms for 
> easting, northing, and zones so there was no ambiguity (or at least it 
> would be minimised). Putting stuff in text fields and hoping people 
> can figure it out is just asking for trouble, as is overloading fields.
>
> If they do go into verbatimCoordinates, I wonder if the spec/examples 
> could add a regular expression to they would have to pass in order to 
> be accepted.
>
> Regards
>
> Rod
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> Roderic Page
> Professor of Taxonomy
> Institute of Biodiversity, Animal Health and Comparative Medicine
> College of Medical, Veterinary and Life Sciences
> Graham Kerr Building
> University of Glasgow
> Glasgow G12 8QQ, UK
>
> Email:  Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk <mailto:Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk>
> Tel:  +44 141 330 4778
> Skype:  rdmpage
> Facebook:  http://www.facebook.com/rdmpage
> LinkedIn:  http://uk.linkedin.com/in/rdmpage
> Twitter:  http://twitter.com/rdmpage
> Blog:  http://iphylo.blogspot.com
> ORCID:  http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7101-9767
> Citations:  
> http://scholar.google.co.uk/citations?hl=en&user=4Z5WABAAAAAJ 
> <http://scholar.google.co.uk/citations?hl=en&user=4Z5WABAAAAAJ>
> ResearchGate https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Roderic_Page
>
>
>> On 9 Feb 2015, at 17:03, Markus Döring <m.doering at mac.com 
>> <mailto:m.doering at mac.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Rod & John,
>>
>> for the future documentation of dwc I’d be curious if we all think it 
>> is a good idea to overload verbatimLongitude/Latitude with not 
>> strictly lon/lat values like easting and northing.
>> I *think* I would prefer a definition, comment and examples where UTM 
>> values go into the verbatimCoordinates field only, even though it 
>> would be great to not have to parse them out from a string. 
>>
>> Any strong opinions?
>>
>>
>> On 09 Feb 2015, at 17:25, Roderic Page <Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk 
>> <mailto:Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi John,
>>>
>>> I guess my concern is that the TTU dataset in VertNet/GBIF didn’t 
>>> explicitly say that the verbatimLatitude/Longitude were easting and 
>>> northings (other values it has in those fields for other records are 
>>> lats and longs), nor did it include the zone information, or the 
>>> fact that the values were for south of the equator (TTU itself 
>>> doesn’t say that either). I had to go back to the TTU web site to 
>>> discover that.
>>>
>>> So, even if parsing is a mess (and I agree it pretty much always is) 
>>> the TTU output didn’t have everything needed to figure out how to 
>>> parse the data correctly. It would be nice if the data that gets to 
>>> the aggregator is complete enough to be interepreted, leaving aside 
>>> in what fields people stick that information.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Rod
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>>> Roderic Page
>>> Professor of Taxonomy
>>> Institute of Biodiversity, Animal Health and Comparative Medicine
>>> College of Medical, Veterinary and Life Sciences
>>> Graham Kerr Building
>>> University of Glasgow
>>> Glasgow G12 8QQ, UK
>>>
>>> Email:  Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk <mailto:Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk>
>>> Tel:  +44 141 330 4778
>>> Skype:  rdmpage
>>> Facebook:  http://www.facebook.com/rdmpage
>>> LinkedIn:  http://uk.linkedin.com/in/rdmpage
>>> Twitter:  http://twitter.com/rdmpage
>>> Blog:  http://iphylo.blogspot.com
>>> ORCID:  http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7101-9767
>>> Citations:  
>>> http://scholar.google.co.uk/citations?hl=en&user=4Z5WABAAAAAJ 
>>> <http://scholar.google.co.uk/citations?hl=en&user=4Z5WABAAAAAJ>
>>> ResearchGate https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Roderic_Page
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 9 Feb 2015, at 16:12, John Wieczorek <tuco at berkeley.edu 
>>>> <mailto:tuco at berkeley.edu>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Rod,
>>>>
>>>> I would treat easting and northing as latitude and longitude, but 
>>>> not following strictly the definition in Darwin Core. There is 
>>>> actually value in being able to have the easting (longitude) 
>>>> separate from the northing (latitude) if the source has them 
>>>> separated. It makes it that much less ambiguous to interpret. I 
>>>> would also have that full tuple as in the example you gave (18M 
>>>> 166624 9840350) along with "UTM" in verbatimCoordinateSystem, and a 
>>>> datum or something similar in verbatimSRS. We want more 
>>>> information, not less, when it comes time to try to turn this all 
>>>> into more readily usable information (decimalLatitude, 
>>>> decimalLongitude, geodeticDatum, 
>>>> coordinateUncertaintyInMeters). All of this verbatim separation 
>>>> arose from the heyday of massive collaborative georeferencing in 
>>>> MaNIS, HerpNET, and ORNIS where we were able to take good advantage 
>>>> of whatever information the source had, and that is why 
>>>> verbatimCoordinateSystem is part of the offerings, to help with tha 
>>>> parsing problem if the original source is known.
>>>>
>>>> In short, I wouldn't have it any other way than the way it is done 
>>>> with TTU. It actually allows use to extract more information 
>>>> correctly rather than less. Parsing is a mess, but it is a mess 
>>>> anyway. It takes me about 25 steps to parse the variations I see in 
>>>> verbatim coordinates in VertNet. but it is worth it.
>>>>
>>>> Now, to get back to TTU and upgrade their venerable migrator and 
>>>> see how things look afterwords. We appreciate the careful eye and 
>>>> the quality feedback reports to Github on TTU's behalf.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 8:50 AM, Roderic Page 
>>>> <Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk <mailto:Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>     Hi Dag,
>>>>
>>>>     Gack, this is where things get messy. I wouldn’t treat easting
>>>>     and northing as latitude and longitude (although they are
>>>>     obviously related). When I write code to parse verbatim
>>>>     latitude and longitude the last thing I expect is  easting and
>>>>     northing (it’s hard enough already given the various ways
>>>>     people write lats and longs). There seems to be enough
>>>>     ambiguity here to really mess things up, as indeed they have
>>>>     for the TTU dataset.
>>>>
>>>>     Regards
>>>>
>>>>     Rod
>>>>
>>>>     ---------------------------------------------------------
>>>>     Roderic Page
>>>>     Professor of Taxonomy
>>>>     Institute of Biodiversity, Animal Health and Comparative Medicine
>>>>     College of Medical, Veterinary and Life Sciences
>>>>     Graham Kerr Building
>>>>     University of Glasgow
>>>>     Glasgow G12 8QQ, UK
>>>>
>>>>     Email:  Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk
>>>>     <mailto:Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk>
>>>>     Tel:  +44 141 330 4778 <tel:%2B44%20141%20330%204778>
>>>>     Skype:  rdmpage
>>>>     Facebook:  http://www.facebook.com/rdmpage
>>>>     LinkedIn:  http://uk.linkedin.com/in/rdmpage
>>>>     Twitter:  http://twitter.com/rdmpage
>>>>     Blog:  http://iphylo.blogspot.com <http://iphylo.blogspot.com/>
>>>>     ORCID:  http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7101-9767
>>>>     Citations: 
>>>>     http://scholar.google.co.uk/citations?hl=en&user=4Z5WABAAAAAJ
>>>>     <http://scholar.google.co.uk/citations?hl=en&user=4Z5WABAAAAAJ>
>>>>     ResearchGate https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Roderic_Page
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>     On 9 Feb 2015, at 11:41, Dag Endresen <dag.endresen at gmail.com
>>>>>     <mailto:dag.endresen at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>     Hi Rod,
>>>>>
>>>>>     I have assumed that the purpose of the dwc:verbatimCoordinates
>>>>>     term is
>>>>>     to allow for reporting coordinates originally recorded as one
>>>>>     single
>>>>>     tuple such as the MGRS (Military Grid Reference System).
>>>>>
>>>>>     While original source coordinates that do have two tuples such
>>>>>     as UTM
>>>>>     would use dwc:verbatimLongitude (for the Easting or X coordinate
>>>>>     tuple) and dwc:verbatimLatitude (for the Northing or Y coordinate
>>>>>     tuple).
>>>>>
>>>>>     Regards
>>>>>     Dag
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     On 9 February 2015 at 11:57, Roderic Page
>>>>>     <Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk
>>>>>     <mailto:Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk>> wrote:
>>>>>>     Hi John,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     So, if I understand you correctly, you would have hoped that
>>>>>>     TTU would have
>>>>>>     output something like this:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     “dwc:verbatimCoordinates” : “18M 166624 9840350”
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     rather than put the easting and northing into
>>>>>>     verbatimLatitude and
>>>>>>     verbatimLongitude.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Regards
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Rod
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     ---------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>     Roderic Page
>>>>>>     Professor of Taxonomy
>>>>>>     Institute of Biodiversity, Animal Health and Comparative Medicine
>>>>>>     College of Medical, Veterinary and Life Sciences
>>>>>>     Graham Kerr Building
>>>>>>     University of Glasgow
>>>>>>     Glasgow G12 8QQ, UK
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Email:  Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk
>>>>>>     <mailto:Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk>
>>>>>>     Tel:  +44 141 330 4778 <tel:%2B44%20141%20330%204778>
>>>>>>     Skype:  rdmpage
>>>>>>     Facebook:  http://www.facebook.com/rdmpage
>>>>>>     LinkedIn:  http://uk.linkedin.com/in/rdmpage
>>>>>>     Twitter:  http://twitter.com/rdmpage
>>>>>>     Blog:  http://iphylo.blogspot.com <http://iphylo.blogspot.com/>
>>>>>>     ORCID:  http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7101-9767
>>>>>>     Citations:
>>>>>>      http://scholar.google.co.uk/citations?hl=en&user=4Z5WABAAAAAJ
>>>>>>     <http://scholar.google.co.uk/citations?hl=en&user=4Z5WABAAAAAJ>
>>>>>>     ResearchGate https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Roderic_Page
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     On 8 Feb 2015, at 20:22, John Wieczorek <tuco at berkeley.edu
>>>>>>     <mailto:tuco at berkeley.edu>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Hi Rod,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     The verbatimLatitude, verbatimLongitude, and
>>>>>>     verbatimCoordinates were all
>>>>>>     intended to be able to capture the original coordinates used
>>>>>>     at the source,
>>>>>>     where decimalLatitude and decimalLongitude, with
>>>>>>     geodeticDatum, were meant
>>>>>>     to contain the the easy to act on global system (UTMs do not
>>>>>>     cover the
>>>>>>     entire planet, for example). The verbatimCoordinate term's
>>>>>>     definition shows
>>>>>>     that this was the intent, but verbatimLatitude and
>>>>>>     verbatimLongitude do not.
>>>>>>     When we get the examples separated from the term definitions,
>>>>>>     it should be
>>>>>>     easier to make this clear.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Cheers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     John
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 2:36 PM, Dag Endresen
>>>>>>     <dag.endresen at gmail.com <mailto:dag.endresen at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Hi Rod,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     At least in Norway, it is very common for the GBIF node to
>>>>>>>     receive
>>>>>>>     (only) Easting and Northing of UTM zones 32V to 36W. For
>>>>>>>     many datasets
>>>>>>>     we will on routine automatically make the conversion to decimal
>>>>>>>     degrees (and WGS84) at the node before these datasets are
>>>>>>>     published to
>>>>>>>     the GBIF portal. When people download occurrences from the
>>>>>>>     Norwegian
>>>>>>>     "GBIF portal", Artskart, my impression is that the UTM 32V
>>>>>>>     (and the
>>>>>>>     33V) Easting and Northing coordinate format is actually more
>>>>>>>     popular
>>>>>>>     than the decimal degree format - this is because the
>>>>>>>     geographic data
>>>>>>>     layers for Norway more often are made available in the UTM
>>>>>>>     format
>>>>>>>     (most often 32V or 33V) [1]. And yes, this continued present day
>>>>>>>     official use of such a wide variety of coordinate formats
>>>>>>>     frustrates
>>>>>>>     me too... The historic use reported with the verbatim terms,
>>>>>>>     is of
>>>>>>>     course difficult to do anything with...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     I assume that Easting and Northing coordinates are both
>>>>>>>     valid and very
>>>>>>>     common values (and not only in Norway) for the Darwin Core
>>>>>>>     verbatim
>>>>>>>     coordinate terms (dwc:verbatimLatitude and
>>>>>>>     dwc:verbatimLongitude or
>>>>>>>     dwc:verbatimCoordinates), but of course only at all useful when
>>>>>>>     accompanied by the respective dwc:verbatimCoordinateSystem and
>>>>>>>     dwc:verbatimSRS also reported. (And that the
>>>>>>>     dwc:decimalLatitude and
>>>>>>>     dwc:decimalLongitude correctly reported in WGS84 should
>>>>>>>     preferably
>>>>>>>     also always be there). I believe that Darwin Core is already
>>>>>>>     fine with
>>>>>>>     respect to terms to report geographic coordinates. If at all any
>>>>>>>     additions are useful, I believe that identifying and
>>>>>>>     recommending
>>>>>>>     terms from more specialized geographic vocabularies and
>>>>>>>     ontologies
>>>>>>>     might be much more useful than adding any new dwc:Location
>>>>>>>     terms to
>>>>>>>     Darwin Core. In fact, most of the dwc:Location terms might
>>>>>>>     perhaps
>>>>>>>     preferably be replaced by terms from the geography
>>>>>>>     community... such
>>>>>>>     as perhaps [2] and [3] (as a start).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     [1]
>>>>>>>     https://dagendresen.wordpress.com/2013/11/22/convert-coordinate-srs/
>>>>>>>     [2] http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos#
>>>>>>>     [3] http://www.geonames.org/ontology/documentation.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Regards
>>>>>>>     Dag
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     On 7 February 2015 at 13:02, Roderic Page
>>>>>>>     <Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk <mailto:Roderic.Page at glasgow.ac.uk>>
>>>>>>>     wrote:
>>>>>>>>     Pardon my ignorance, but has there ever been a discussion
>>>>>>>>     of easting and
>>>>>>>>     northing values in regards to Darwin Core? AFAIK the
>>>>>>>>     current standard
>>>>>>>>     doesn’t mention them. The reason I’m asking is that I’ve
>>>>>>>>     just come
>>>>>>>>     across
>>>>>>>>     some VerbatimLatitude and VerbatimLongitude values in a
>>>>>>>>     dataset that is
>>>>>>>>     aggregated by VertNet (and hence GBIF) where (after some head
>>>>>>>>     scratching) I
>>>>>>>>     realised that the verbatim values were actually Easting and
>>>>>>>>     Northing
>>>>>>>>     (which
>>>>>>>>     I didn’t know existed until yesterday). Details are here:
>>>>>>>>     https://github.com/ttu-vertnet/ttu-mammals/issues/11
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     I’m guessing this isn’t a terribly common way to record
>>>>>>>>     location
>>>>>>>>     information, but it looks like in this case the lack of
>>>>>>>>     support for this
>>>>>>>>     type of data has resulted in somebody trying to shoehorn
>>>>>>>>     them into
>>>>>>>>     VerbatimLatitude and VerbatimLongitude, resulting in values
>>>>>>>>     which are
>>>>>>>>     uninterpretable to aggregators further up the chain.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     Regards
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     Rod
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     --
>>>>>>>     Dag Endresen, Ph.D.
>>>>>>>     Private email: dag.endresen at gmail.com
>>>>>>>     <mailto:dag.endresen at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>     Work email: dag.endresen at nhm.uio.no
>>>>>>>     <mailto:dag.endresen at nhm.uio.no>
>>>>>>>     Mobile: +47 4061 2982
>>>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>     tdwg-content mailing list
>>>>>>>     tdwg-content at lists.tdwg.org <mailto:tdwg-content at lists.tdwg.org>
>>>>>>>     http://lists.tdwg.org/mailman/listinfo/tdwg-content
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     -- 
>>>>>     Dag Endresen, Ph.D.
>>>>>     Private email: dag.endresen at gmail.com
>>>>>     <mailto:dag.endresen at gmail.com>
>>>>>     Work email: dag.endresen at nhm.uio.no
>>>>>     <mailto:dag.endresen at nhm.uio.no>
>>>>>     Mobile: +47 4061 2982
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
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-- 
Dr. Quentin Groom
(Botany and Information Technology)

Botanic Garden, Meise
Domein van Bouchout
B-1860 Meise
Belgium

ORCID: 0000-0002-0596-5376

Landline; +32 (0) 226 009 20 ext. 364
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